Overhead environments and open water scuba divers

[jmneill]

He was a pioneer in the sport of cave diving and got hung up on bottomless blue holes that did get a bit crazy but its what he wanted to do with his life and that makes it his buisness.

Doesn't it always boil down to that?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Doesn't it always boil down to that?

No ... it doesn't. Sheck based his decisions on his own knowledge and experience ... and understood quite well the risks he was taking.

There's a big difference between that and someone who follows a dive guide into an unknown environment, trusting that the guide will keep them safe. Unfortunately, guides are human and sometimes make mistakes. In that case, it behooves you to have the skills needed to keep yourself out of trouble.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[nimoh]

The problem for the untrained cave diver is that you don't know what you don't know and training will reduce what you don't know.

I'll admit that I went on a cave dive in Dos Ojos untrained, and although I don't regret it, my next cave dive will be as a trained cave diver, probably a year or so from now.

 

[jmneill]

No ... it doesn't. Sheck based his decisions on his own knowledge and experience ...


... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Well, his knowledge, or lack thereof apparently killed him. Or as they like to say on SB, he dove beyond his training.

---------- Post Merged at 09:38 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 09:16 AM ----------

The problem for the untrained cave diver is that you don't know what you don't know and training will reduce what you don't know.

I'll admit that I went on a cave dive in Dos Ojos untrained, and although I don't regret it, my next cave dive will be as a trained cave diver, probably a year or so from now.

Since signing onto scubaboard I have heard the "you don't know what you don't know" cliche more times than I can count. But even without knowing what I don't know, I still know that as I enter the tunnel and look over my shoulder at the light disappearing behind me that things are indeed becoming less safe whether I am following a guide or not.

 

[Bob DBF]

Also, for those talking up Sheck Exley, remember, he died scuba diving when he made a mistake.

In this "safe" hobbie of SCUBA diving, we are all one mistake away from our end as well.

No ... it doesn't. Sheck based his decisions on his own knowledge and experience ... and understood quite well the risks he was taking.

There's a big difference between that and someone who follows a dive guide into an unknown environment, trusting that the guide will keep them safe. Unfortunately, guides are human and sometimes make mistakes. In that case, it behooves you to have the skills needed to keep yourself out of trouble.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I decided a long time ago, when SCUBA was not safe, that I would rather meet my end through my own mistakes not those of others, they might be making decisions even dumber than mine.

Sheck Exley did not die following a minimum wage DM into a cave that none present were certified to do. He took a well calculated risk and died on his quest, I might disagree with his quest, but it is his choice not mine.



Bob
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"Science progresses one funeral at a time." -- Max Planck

A man's got to know his limitations.
Harry Callahan

 

[Dive Bug Bit Me]

In this "safe" hobbie of SCUBA diving, we are all one mistake away from our end as well.

Thing is in open water diving there are many mistakes from which you can recover quite easily. Those same mistakes in a cave will kill you.

Sometimes Sheck just got lucky. His skill was realising this and adjusting his plan and equipment so that he would not need to get lucky in the same situation a second time.
In the end, even his luck ran out.

 

[shoredivr]

I can not justify a trip to another state to take an expensive course to dive a cave that has dozens of divers go through it pretty well every week, year round year after year! There have been thousands of people through that cave with no incidents. It meets all of Lyn's criteria with the exception of the 2M(6ft) chimney where two divers can't go side by side. There are no entanglement hazards.

I believe that having a sensible series of questions to ask to determine if a given overhead environment is appropriate for a given diver is a great way for people to make better decisions.

I find it interesting that people talk about "Trust me" dives when we do them all the time. Every time I commit to a dive that I haven't done before based on a dive brief given to me by someone else I am doing a trust me dive to some degree. All a matter of interpretation I guess.

Your last paragraph is spot on.

In terms of cavern diving, is there a wreck penetration course near to you? Not exactly the same, but enough similar skills that the knowledge might be useful.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Well, his knowledge, or lack thereof apparently killed him.

No ... it did not. And I'm not going to waste my time engaging in a conversation about it.

It's like comparing a Green Beret to a bunch of children playing with a gun ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[jmneill]

No ... it did not. And I'm not going to waste my time engaging in a conversation about it.

It's like comparing a Green Beret to a bunch of children playing with a gun ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Come on Bob, you seem like the loquatious type. Don't just do a drive by slamming all my posts, pull over and enlighten me.
And I assume you mean a Green Beret who has accidently blown his head off with his own M-4?

 

[Paladin]

I pulled this one over from another thread I posted on:

It happened in the summer of 1978. The equipment consisted of a Healthways steel 72, Aqua-Lung Aquarius reg, White Stag Deep SPG, USD Atlantis mask, USD Otarie fins, 5 pounds on a USD weight belt, USD diver's knife. I had just bought the Aquarius and this was my first dive with a single hose reg.

One year, when I was just a kid, my family went to Tennessee for vacation. While we were there, we visited Tuckaleechee (sp?) Caverns. From that time on, I was fascinated by caves. By the time I reached my early twenties, I had spent thousands of hours exploring underground and crawling through some pretty tight places. I even became a member of the Tri-State Search and Rescue Team, specializing in cave rescue.

So, when my friend and I discovered a cave in the rock wall of a man-made lake where we were diving (I'm not going to say where because I don't want to tempt anyone), we decided to check it out.

Yeah, I know. We were young and stupid. I should've known better.

Anyway, Fuzz led the way and I followed him into the cave. The passage was tight and Fuzz kicked up the sediment to the point where I couldn't see squat. I groped along behind him, hands out in front, trying to keep up. Then, I suddenly found myself in clear water and Fuzz was nowhere in sight. I switched off my light to see if I could detect his light. Nada. Black as Hades. At that moment, I felt my tank grate against the ceiling for an instant, then come free.

I realized that I must have taken a side passage and was separated from Fuzz. I started to back out, but couldn't. I was stuck. My tank was lodged in a depression in the ceiling and I couldn't move. My first thought was to simply unbuckle my harness and slip out from under the tank, then pull it out of the cave after me, but the passage was too tight and I couldn't get my hand down to my waist to release the buckle. I thought about cutting the harness away at the shoulders but my knife was strapped to my leg, out reach.

Out of options, all I could do was watch the needle of my SPG as my air slowly ran out. I thought about my parents and my girlfriend. I thought about how stupid I was and I wondered how long it would be before someone found my body.

At 500 psi, it became more difficult to breathe. At 300 psi, my J valve would cut off and I couldn't reach the rod to turn on the reserve. Panic was about to set in when I felt something moving along my left leg. It moved up to my waist and I felt a tug at my harness buckle. Then, something grabbed my ankles and yanked me backward and free. I pulled my tank after me and followed Fuzz back out to open water. On the way, I had to open the reserve.

I haven't tried cave diving since.