PADI Enriched Air Certification.... a little fishy.

[CaveMD]

CaveMD:

By that logic, anybody with a nitrox cert. who doesn't remember the mathematical formulas from the course, even years later, is unfit to dive.

That's not going by my logic, that is in fact, exactly what I said. If you don't remember it and you want to dive enriched air, LOOK IT UP.

Trimix gas calculations are 6th grade math. So no I absolutely do not think it is acceptable for someone diving nitrox to not know the basic math involved.


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[rhwestfall]

You could do that but then you're relying on having the table available when you need it. I could keep coming up with scenarios where it's easier to just know the math but I think I've made my point.

Isn't one of the "lessons learned" that you run the calcs on your mix (with whatever you use - and the LDS that fills my tanks has a large poster on the wall at the fill station listing the EAD and MOD at 1.2, 1.4, & 1.6), and label the tank (mix & mod). Dive site changes..... hmmmm... seems to be no big deal...

.... and hovering being wrong?????

That whole comment about it being "wrong to do" is blown out of the water on many wall dives. I've been on walls that start in 20', and have a hard bottom reportedly somewhere in the 300'-500' depth. Is diving EAN32 wrong there? Not if you know its limitations, and doing math on the fly isn't going to gain you anything...... chasing a dropped item will get you in a world of hurt, but one would hope that any class covers the importance of understanding the limitations of the mix.

As a comparison: I did a NAUI class over the winter, and after a light covering of the math (1 or 2 examples), the next thing was to use various tables and "calculators" that were part of the materials (NAUI supplies an interesting "wheel type" device that runs the calcs, so math is taken out of the error risk pool, and even as an engineer, I found it handy). Instructor stated that if you wanted to do the math, go ahead. I actually created spreadsheets that do the calcs on my phone, laptop, and PDA so resources are available to me.

 

[RJP]

I know they can. Another example, you've got 34% for your 100 foot dive and the destination gets changed on the boat to a wreck at 115 feet. Can you do the dive? If a diver understands what's actually going on, he/she can avoid a problem instead of waiting for their computer to start flashing/beeping at them.

With divers bringing gas appropriate to the originally planned depth of 100ft, what boat is going to change the destination to one DEEPER than originally planned?

 

[CaveMD]

With divers bringing gas appropriate to the originally planned depth of 100ft, what boat is going to change the destination to one DEEPER than originally planned?

One that I wouldn't dive with

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[ffdiver]

I think what happens is there is a small group of divers that take the sport very seriously and learn and study all aspects of it to be safer divers, Which is great, I'm in that small group. But the majority of divers, just want to do fun dives and don't feel the need to study prior to going on their dives.

It's no one agency's fault or the instructors fault. It's the public. The majority of divers just want to look at pretty fish. As an industry we all had to accommodate that, cause in all reality, this sport is relatively safe, and most dives that are being done by the majority of divers are short, shallow and don't require any mathematical formulas.

Me personally, I would rather train the small group who really cares about why behind the sport. But, I understand why classes are water down a bit to the majority of divers that just want to see some pretty fish.

 

[billgraham]

With divers bringing gas appropriate to the originally planned depth of 100ft, what boat is going to change the destination to one DEEPER than originally planned?

There are boats here in the Northeast that do not announce any destination, and you don't find out where you are going until after you are outside the inlet, it's not unusual at all. Typically, all you know is it'll be between 90-130 feet.

---------- Post Merged at 04:27 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 04:24 PM ----------

Isn't one of the "lessons learned" that you run the calcs on your mix (with whatever you use - and the LDS that fills my tanks has a large poster on the wall at the fill station listing the EAD and MOD at 1.2, 1.4, & 1.6), and label the tank (mix & mod). Dive site changes..... hmmmm... seems to be no big deal...

.... and hovering being wrong?????

That whole comment about it being "wrong to do" is blown out of the water on many wall dives. I've been on walls that start in 20', and have a hard bottom reportedly somewhere in the 300'-500' depth. Is diving EAN32 wrong there? Not if you know its limitations, and doing math on the fly isn't going to gain you anything...... chasing a dropped item will get you in a world of hurt, but one would hope that any class covers the importance of understanding the limitations of the mix.

As a comparison: I did a NAUI class over the winter, and after a light covering of the math (1 or 2 examples), the next thing was to use various tables and "calculators" that were part of the materials (NAUI supplies an interesting "wheel type" device that runs the calcs, so math is taken out of the error risk pool, and even as an engineer, I found it handy). Instructor stated that if you wanted to do the math, go ahead. I actually created spreadsheets that do the calcs on my phone, laptop, and PDA so resources are available to me.

A wall is a different situation. If you dive with a mix that is too hot for the bottom on a wreck dive, you are a complete idiot and nothing you say will convince me otherwise.

 

[mala]

the maths are so simple ...

why complicate them with stuff you cant take underwater with you?

 

[rhwestfall]

we each have our ways....I'd be more concerned with the person who just plugs it in, and goes swimming until their computer tells them otherwise....

 

[hypertech]

I know they can. Another example, you've got 34% for your 100 foot dive and the destination gets changed on the boat to a wreck at 115 feet. Can you do the dive? If a diver understands what's actually going on, he/she can avoid a problem instead of waiting for their computer to start flashing/beeping at them.

If you are diving a mix you can't safely dive at 15 feet deeper than the plan, you are probably on the wrong mix anyway.

And on top of that, the risk of diving at something like 1.45 instead of 1.4 is probably really not worth worrying about all that much. If I am remembering right, it wasn't too long ago that 1.6 was considered appropriate for the working part of the dive and I've heard in the past numbers as high as 2.0 were used.

 

[RJP]

There are boats here in the Northeast that do not announce any destination, and you don't find out where you are going until after you are outside the inlet, it's not unusual at all. Typically, all you know is it'll be between 90-130 feet.

So now you're changing your hypothetical situation. If you know it will be between 90-130fsw... why would you bring 34% with you?

On our boat we will typically tell you a specific wreck. If we change destinations - which is not uncommon - it will be same depth or shallower. Sometimes we will specify a depth, and choose the wreck at the dock or the way out based on conditions and passenger desire. We would never go deeper than planned*. Don't know of a boat that would. Would never dive with one that did. This is a "dive op" problem, not a "dive planning" problem.

*Unless everyone on board had appropriate gas and desire.