Overhead environments and open water scuba divers

[jmneill]

This is what I classify as "low-probability, extremely high consequence event"........which means I take as many precautions as I can........

I've got too many years in Emergency Services to tempt Lady Luck (YMMV)

BTW - Racer X......Haven't seen too many "clips" in a pistol....... magazines yes, clips no. Maybe you can enlighten me which pistols have clips, yes?

+1 It took a lot of self restraint for me not to jump on that one as well. Maybe he has an SKS/ handgun hybrid no? To much TV and not enough time at the range...

 

[PfcAJ]

BTW - Racer X......Haven't seen too many "clips" in a pistol....... magazines yes, clips no. Maybe you can enlighten me which pistols have clips, yes?

High-five for you! Clips vs mags is a pet peeve of mine. Good to see someone else on the proper nomenclature crusade!

 

[flots am]

What about the overhead dives where it is well known in advance that there is no silty bottom to stur up? I hate seeing this broad, accross the board stroke against all OW divers in ANY overhead environment. I wish I had the time to start a list of dive sites, public and private involving overhead (non cave) with excellent to stellar safety records. I'll bet, with a little research it would be the longest post in this thread.

Anyplace that doesn't allow a direct ascent to the surface is inappropriate for Open Water divers.

There may be places where an OW diver might be able to dive reasonably safely in an overhead, but the OW divers have no way to know which of these "safe overhead environments" are actually safe and which are simply promoted as "safe."

Since an OW diver has no way to evaluate the risk other than "trust me, it's safe", the best course of action is to follow training and avoid them.

flots.

 

[jmneill]

Anyplace that doesn't allow a direct ascent to the surface is inappropriate for Open Water divers.

There are may be places where an OW diver might be able to dive reasonably safely, but the OW divers have no way to know which of these "safe overhead environments" are actually safe and which are simply promoted as "safe."

Since an OW diver has no way to evaluate the risk other than "trust me, it's safe", the best course of action is to follow training and avoid them.

flots.

Or go by the LONG TERM safety record of the given site and or agency. What is the real difference between the average cavern certified diver and an OW diver who has done his due diligence reading, learning and slowly immersing him or herself into well known NON CAVE overhead environments pray tell? I'll tell you what it is, a plastic card. Are there overhead environments where certain OW divers don't belong? Of course. But the brush stroke you are using is to broad.

 

[HenrikBP]

I came across this story by chance some years ago. Still can't read it without feeling short of breath and hair standing up on the back of my neck:

I really thought my end had come! - Rebreather World

In short the story is about how horribly sideways things can go, even when you're just going a short way in to take a quick peek.

I don't do swim-throughs or overheads unless they're big enough for me to easily turn around and get out and even then I don't go far. Granted I'm claustrophobic, so that adds to it , but my training has shown me how the smallest things can send you rapidly down the incident pit. I don't need to add overhead with untrained divers to the list

 

[chrpai]

This thread is bound to go downhill fast

You do seem to be doing a good job at it. Perhaps we should remember that this is the basic scuba zone and it's probably not good to be telling people they don't need c-cards.

 

[flots am]

Or go by the LONG TERM safety record of the given site and or agency. What is the real difference between the average cavern diver and an OW diver who has done his due diligence reading, learning and slowly immersing him or herself into well known NON CAVE overhead environments pray tell? I'll tell you what it is, a plastic card.

I'm hoping that other differences would include buddy skills, gas planning, blackout drills, lost mask, lost buddy, line skills, and non-silting fin kicks.

So, which overhead SCUBA attraction do you make your living at?

flots.

 

[ianr33]

Or go by the LONG TERM safety record of the given site and or agency. What is the real difference between the average cavern certified diver and an OW diver who has done his due diligence reading, learning and slowly immersing him or herself into well known NON CAVE overhead environments pray tell? I'll tell you what it is, a plastic card. Are there overhead environments where certain OW divers don't belong? Of course. But the brush stroke you are using is to broad.

Well,everyone is entitled to their opinion. This is mine;

I have and will continue to do many things I am not actually certified for ( Dive solo, in a drysuit,sidemount, deeper than 150 on air, deeper than 200 on trimix) but I never entered a cavern before doing the course, and would not recommend anyone else to do so either.

A cavern course only runs around $300. Why not do it?

 

[jmneill]

I'm hoping that other differences would include buddy skills, gas planning, blackout drills, lost mask, lost buddy, line skills, and non-silting fin kicks.

So, which overhead SCUBA attraction do you make your living at?

flots.

You have flatly stated that no OW diver should not be in ANY overhead environment. How many thousands (to be on the conservative side) of overhead environments exsist that in reality require next to none of the criteria you have listed above. Gas planning for 20'? Doesn't take much of a plan IMO. Line skills for a 10' swim through? Non silting swim kicks on a dive where there is no silt? Should I go on. I will reiterate that in reality there are many OW divers diving in "safe" overhead environments that don't belong there, and many OW divers that don't belong in the water at all... But again the brush stroke is to broad... JMHO (which I feel strongly about)

As to what SCUBA attraction do I make a living at you question? Well, I quite obviously do not. Maybe if I did I would be coming from behind giving all your posts the thumbs up. (I doubt it)

 

[JamesK]

I have said it before, and I will say it again. You don't need any training of any type to go in an overhead environment. However, you might need training to get out. That is the big thing. Yes, many caverns that allow OW divers have great safety records. That is because it is not the cavern that is going to kill you. It is the blown o-ring when you are 100 feet back in a cavern and can not get to the surface that will kill you. It is the instant drop in visibility and not knowing how to find the exit that will kill you. When things go right on a dive everything is great, and everyone thinks they can do what ever they want to do because of an excellent safety record. It is when things go wrong and you don't have the training to get out of that situation that will kill you.