Is Deep Air / Light Deco (bounce?) Discussible on ScubaBoard?

[knowone]

http://darwin.asu.edu/media/podcasts/ASU_Darwin_Days_Panels_Talks_vol_04.mp3

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Lets say that you are at 40.5m and you have accumulated 7 mins of backgas deco and are getting ready to call the dive. Lets also say that you are diving with a buddy which some (but not all) of us tend to do. Your buddy, at that moment, goes out of gas and comes to you for help. How much time will it take to help your buddy? (Gas donation, handing over your pony, etc.) Optimistically, it will take 1 minute. Most likely, a lot more. How much deco obligation did that extra minute add?

So, for you and your buddy, is a direct ascent to the surface now an option? Lets say it took you 3 minutes to sort out the emergency, what is your deco obligation now? Are your risks significantly increased if you decide to do a direct ascent now?

I'm gonna guess that most of the masses who only have "recreational" training don't have the knowledge on how to deal with this situation and as such, are likely not only ill equipped but also unaware of their best options for minimizing the severity of the outcome.
Personally, I consider any dive that can go outside of the boundaries of what is taught in "recreational" dive training to be, not recreational. And in the U.S., PADI, NAUI and SSI seem to be pretty close when it comes to defining what the boundaries of their recreational training programs are.

My buddy comes to me and starts using my air.....I stuff one reg in his mouth, another in mine and I am going to be adding air to my BC within 15 seconds and kicking. I am gonna be outta there!

In 3 minutes, I expect to have me and my buddy 70-90 feet closer to the surface! 3 minutes????

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

And why not a Deep air in this forum, for god's sake advance dive magazine is here and has almost no traffic except curt, I did not go there, but in todays post when I see it no ever really post. and you have to scroll down to find this thread, come on devon lets put a Deep Air up and see how it goes, If it is as dead as the curts mag section then end it, If it has high traffic lets see how it goes can't hurt.

First off, I'll agree with you that if we're going to have these discussions, a Deep Air forum is desireable. The question would then be how to prevent it from becoming a perpetual trainwreck?

As for the ADM forum ... I've dived with Curt. He's a deep air diver ... went to over 200 feet on air during our Nootka Sound trip last October. And while he can certainly handle it ... Curt's one of the most experienced divers I've ever dived with ... it was also very, very obvious that he wasn't at his best down there. He won't even pretend that it's any other way.

Choices are one thing ... I'll vigorously defend your right to dive as you choose. How it gets promoted ... that's another topic altogether ... and the only one I really object to. But that's a topic I plan to elaborate on in another post ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Adobo]

My buddy comes to me and starts using my air.....I stuff one reg in his mouth, another in mine and I am going to be adding air to my BC within 15 seconds and kicking. I am gonna be outta there!

In 3 minutes, I expect to have me and my buddy 70-90 feet closer to the surface! 3 minutes????

Its not about what you would do.

Its about what recreational divers are trained to do. And about the knowledge and experience they would get from diving recreational dives.

Most people I run into at the dive shop live by the "be back at the boat with 500psi" rule. Do these people really have the wherewithall to do what you would do on this type of dive? Can they pick up what they need to do on this type of dive by taking the any/all of PADI's recreational dive training classes? Or can we agree that these folks will need more knowledge that what PADI has to offer at this level to execute this dive and react the way you would react in this situation?

 

[DevonDiver]

I know some that wanted to post are discouraged of having to argue with members that the only diving they actually do is cyberdive and not actually Deep Air Dive.

That's exactly why I differentiate between technical and recreational 'deep air' diving. I don't know if my posts 'discourage' anyone from being involved in the thread, but I do a lot of deep air diving. Deep air wreck penetrations on virgin war wrecks at 260'. Deep air solo (night) dives at 280'. Literally hundreds of solo technical wreck penetrations using air as backgas in the 100-140' range.. There a number of reasons why I do this; helium cost and availability, personal capacity and honest risk assessment being the prime amongst them. If I only did a couple of these dives per month...then helium cost wouldn't be an issue.. I can get a big cylinder of He and mix my own at quite an affordable rate if I were just dabbling with these dives on the occasional weekend.

I STILL disagree with many of the posts that attempt to 'mainstream' (or should I say 'resurrect') the use of air as a reasonable choice for deep diving. I ALSO disagree wholeheartedly with any attempt to legitimize 'bounce' diving as a recognised scuba procedure for recreational diving.

I STILL post on this forum bearing in mind genuine ethical concern over whether my comments might ever serve as some form of endorsement to encourage these activities. I don't particularly care to beat my chest over my 'rights', to 'win' academic points... or to assuage my ego by demonstrating my debating prowess or diving heroics at the expense of offering less experienced divers prudent, safe and realistic guidance. Guidance from my advice...and how I demonstrate my mindset and personal responsibility, as an experienced diver, within these debates.

Is there merit in discussing these things? Yes, maybe; if done for the right reasons, by the right people. But then... there's nearly 200,000 members on this forum... and, maybe, less than 20 of those actually do those dives, or are currently capable of doing them, safely. That perspective must be retained when considering the location for, and tone of, such debates.

And I agree on your post in the Deep Air around the world not having helium from cost or available that is what deep air is for and why it will always be the way to dive the world.

Not really. I can count on two hands the number of divers I personally know who complete such dives. A small, very serious, bunch of experienced technical divers who regularly conduct exploratory wreck dives in unexplored areas. Given the capabilities of these divers, the nature of the diving conditions, the volume of diving achieved...and the remote locations that are dived... trimix is sometimes not considered the most feasible option. It is, however, considered.

As such, from my own experience, I hardly feel that this represents in any way, the wider diving community. It's certainly not an example that any wannabie 'deep bounce diver' should consider emulating. Nor should it be cited as any justification for diving with high narcosis.

Most of the diving community do have ready access to trimix and given the volume of deep/tec diving they are likely to achieve, it is an affordable and prudent 'best option' for them.

So a dive to 40.5m or a dive which incurs <8mins of deco is a techinical dive?

To me, the essential division between tec and rec is the dive plan - the equipment and procedures used is dictated by demands of the dive to be undertaken. If I have deco, whether that is 1 minute or 100 minutes, then my contingency for that is an adequately sized redundant air supply, along with the full spectrum of other equipment, plans and procedures necessary to ensure I can complete my dive (my deco) as I planned it. Gas choice is a critical component within the dive plan, but it is not the be-all and end-all in determining the dive characteristics.

For the sake of the TOS:

According to the 'major agencies' the "absolute maximum" depth for recreational divers is 40m. I don't see any grey area in that. Divers are taught that from OW level onwards. Beyond that "requires special procedures and equipment"; namely those taught on technical diving courses.

According to the 'major agencies', recreational divers should not enter decompression. Recreational divers are taught 'emergency decompression' for the purposes of accidentally over-staying on a dive. Nothing more, nothing less. To conduct planned decompression dives"requires special procedures and equipment"; namely those taught on technical diving courses.

Those are the standards that the overwhelming majority of the scuba industry abide by. It's what virtually all scuba divers have been taught in the last couple of decades. Yes, BSAC and CMAS teach differently - because their standards didn't change for the last few decades. That said, I' know (PADI/SSI) dive centres that individually certify more divers per year than the whole of BSAC. That's my context when using the word 'major'.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I think that characterization of those two is unfair. Neither of them has been diving that long, but both have accumulated many dives in a variety of environments. They have both pursued formal training in cave and technical diving and they both (well TS&M especially) seem pretty anal about doing things in the proper manner.

TSM is always pointing out her failures and challenges and describes in great detail what she could have/should have done better. I honestly think that new divers that are very introspective and smart and observant, may pick up on tricks and challenges that are useful to teach to new divers, more so than some of us that have been diving since before Jimmy Carter was president, and may not even remember some of the simpler challenges.

I don't always agree with everything they say, but they have given tons of very good advice and i have also watched how TSM's attitude and advice has become much less "textbook", less dogmatic, more practical and experienced based and more situational dependent as her experience level increases.

It seems they they have sought out some of the best training available and have done a very good job of trying to disseminate this information in a more palatable and useful manner. They have both been on a freaking crusade to address gas consumption/planning and I completely agree that this is a huge "black hole" in current recreational trianing standards. I just don't get where their opinions should not be respected?

Seriously, most people are only gonna get so good at diving (like most any sport) after a few years of very active participation, most people are going to be reaching their personal threshold of ability (especailly if we are talking about one particular type of diving). After you have done a dive 50 times; how much better are you really gonna get by doing the exact same dive another 150 times? Unless of course you are stupid or a very slow learner?

I suspect that their personal distaste for deep air is based on experience AND "book learning" and they are not just parroting "PADI training standards".

Thank you ... and to clarify something, I have no issue with deep air diving. I have a big issue with promoting it as a shortcut to proper training and experience. I've made that statement a number of times now ... somehow, those who are doing the promoting seem to be ignoring it.

And FWIW - I have only ever taken one PADI class (equipment maintenance) and that was when I was a very new diver. I had no idea even what agency it was being taught through ... I just happened to find an instructor who could teach me what I wanted to know. And before anyone jumps on how "worthless" such a class is ... the guy who taught it services regs full-time. He's earned his living in this industry since before Carter was President ... and if you live in major parts of Washington, Oregon or Idaho the odds are pretty good that he's the guy your regs get sent to when you drop them off at your shop for servicing.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Tortuga68]

First off, I'll agree with you that if we're going to have these discussions, a Deep Air forum is desireable. The question would then be how to prevent it from becoming a perpetual trainwreck?

Banning 8 or so scubaboard members - from both sides of the fence - would probably keep it to a minimum

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I'm interested in discussing whether or not an adult discussion with regards to light deco deeper than 40 m air diving could benefit the never going to tech dive but probably will dive air deeper than 40 m divers in the world.

Well ... now that this thread has been moved and re-opened, I say yes ... let's do that. But let's first define what constitutes "adult conversation".

Adult conversation does not include making up demeaning names for people who don't support your position ... as you have.

It does not include disparaging the character, competence, and experience level of people you disagree with ... as knowone did.

It does not include making up lies about people, or accusing them of killing a dive buddy ... as VooDooGasMan did about TSandM.

If you want to have an adult conversation, you need to stop attacking the people you disagree with, and instead attack their position.

I've stated numerous times ... and posted a quote from a widely respected expert in scuba diving that supports my position ... I don't really care how you dive. I support your right to make that choice. I DO care how you promote safe diving practices on a public forum.

So let's use that as a starting point ... and see if you, knowone, or VooDooGasMan are really interested in discussion ... as opposed to simply wanting a place where you can brag about how awesome of a diver you are, and how everyone who disagrees with you is somehow a robot who knows nothing about diving. Are you up to the challenge?

VooDooGasMan and I have a common diving friend ... his name is Kirby. Kirby is a very experienced, and I consider a very skilled diver. He is fond of doing deep dives on air ... often dives in excess of 250 feet. He does these dives in Puget Sound, which ... contrary to knowone's assertion ... is not a swamp. The diving here is cold, dark, often strong currents, and you can easily reach depths in excess of 300 feet doing dives from shore. Kirby has done literally hundreds of dives in these conditions in excess of 200 feet from shore.

A few months back, while doing such a dive in Elliott Bay, he ran his twin 100's out of air on a dive in excess of 200 feet. According to him, he was at about 180 feet when he did it. Also according to Kirby's own statement, the reason he ran out of air is that he was narced, got forgetful, and simply didn't monitor his gas supply.

Kirby ... being a skilled and experienced diver ... was able to do an ESA that would kill most recreational divers ... reach about 80 feet ... and switch to his deco bottle. What he wasn't able to do at that point was arrest his ascent ... and he quickly found himself on the surface. He bent himself badly ... spent several weeks in the hospital, severall trips to the chamber, and now ... months later ... still isn't able to dive.

Now ... I'm not disparaging Kirby in any way. He's a friend ... someone I respect and admire, not because of his diving choices but because of his passion for diving and the fact that he's one of the nicest people I'll ever know. But if we're going to have a useful discussion about deep air diving, I'd like to ask Halemano, VooDooGasMan and knowone ... in particular ... what would YOU do to assure that such an incident doesn't happen to you? How do you prepare for your deep air dives in such a way that you mitigate the risk of just zoning out due to narcosis?

And finally I want to ask ... you three gentlemen in particular ... if this can happen to Kirby ... a guy who has at least as much deep air experience as you do ... don't you think it might, someday, happen to you? And if not ... why not?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Frankly, that's just ridiculous...



Carter was President???

Pay attention! I said BEFORE Carter was president (I had to look that up to make sure)....

 

[DevonDiver]

never going to tech dive but probably will dive air deeper than 40 m divers in the world.

You mean... those people who want to do tech dives, but don't want to do tech training?

Argue about the definition of tech? Hmmm...lets avoid that... I'll re-phrase. How about...

You mean, those people who want to do air dives below 40m, but don't want to do training courses that teach you to safely plan and conduct air dives to below 40m?

So... let's have an 'adult' conversation about divers who wish to conduct high-risk dives, for which they have made a conscious decision not to seek appropriate and widely available training for,... and therefore wilfully expose themselves to those unnecessary risks.... for the sake of (1) proving a point, (2) exercising their 'rights' or (3) saving a few bucks.

As an adult, I'd recognise such divers as immature. Spank them. Send them to their rooms. I'd chuckle a little to myself... knowing they'd learn the folly of their ways when they grew up.

Edit: How are this course (below) not directly applicable and suitable to the 'ground-breaking' dive activities that are being debated in this thread:

Tec 40
...to accommodate divers interested in very limited tec diving, the Tec 40 equipment requirements are only a bit beyond those of the standard recreational kit.


A Tec 40 diver is qualified to;

&#8226; Use decompression software and dive computers to plan and make decompression dives with not more than 10 minutes of total decompression and not deeper than 40 metres/130 feet.

&#8226; Use a single cylinder of decompression gas with up to 50 percent oxygen (EANx50) to add conservatism to the required decompression.