BP/W banned in DM Course

[DevonDiver]

IANTD are the only agency( I know of) which make specific mention about releases; when in connection with a course. Namely that if you cannot complete a kit removal and replacement in a certain time, because of 1-piece, then you are required to put a break in.

Last time I looked PADI say nada about having releases on your equipment.

PADI do state that the instructor has to be equipped with a cutting device. That solves the problem of one-piece harnesses from a safety perspective.

I like that IANTD set a time limit on remove/replace. That certainly encourages instructors to ensure that their students have a workable rig...and, where possible, that they get the student's harness properly adjusted.

I guess IANTD have put more thought into the issues of BP&W and Hog diving, because of their technical diving emphasis.

 

[Divedoggie]

No it doesnt. Is this a typo? The Divemaster Candidate is not a certified and renewed Divemaster... therefore, not a certified assistant, as per the PADI definition.

Right. Where did I say otherwise? The DMC cannot be used as an assistant. He is considered a student. As I said before, he counts against Instructor to student ratios.

In fact, there is no actual or formal designation of a Divemaster Candidate. They are a Rescue Diver (or whatever other higher qualification they hold).

Exactly.

Maybe it's different at your LDS... but everywhere I've been, people pay to take a Divemaster course. That makes them customers.

The Divemaster Course is the Divemaster course. Internship is not necessarily what the DMC/Certified Rescue Diver is paying for. At the point the DMC/CRD becomes a liability to the Instructor during an Open Water Class, the DMC/CRD is no longer a customer.

What right? Can you quote a PADI standard that gives an instructor that right?

There are plenty of rights that we individuals have that are not quotable PADI standards. We all have the right to practice prudent decision making in order to avoid being negligent in the event of a lawsuit. I do believe that PADI makes that very clear.

I can quote several PADI standards that list exactly what the equipment requirements for DM training are. None of those standards prohibit BP&W configurations.

In fact, I even think it is debatable whether insistence on certain exact equipment set-ups could be considered a breach of PADI standards. Instructors aren't allowed to set their own standards for courses.... and, in effect, insistence of specific equipment configurations would be setting personal standards, contrary to the PADI ones..?

Nowhere in my argument do I infer that the problem is a BP/W setup, or any other setup. I stated and inferred that the Instructor has the right to limit his liability and demand an equipment change if he sees something that he considers unsafe. I stated that it would be interesting to hear the OP Instructor's side of the story. Maybe he was aware of something specifically that was unsafe..not merely the BP/W, long hose setup.

If a student is wearing fins that are too large and continually fall off during skill development in the pool, which causes distraction and slows the progress of the class down, it is not unreasonable for the Instructor to insist that the student wear fins that fit appropriately. This is not an example of an Instructor setting a standard. It is an example of an Instructor being in control of the pace and the safety of his class.

Students/Customers also have the right to:

1. Contact PADI directly and seek a definitive answer about whether their gear is prohibited and/or unsuitable for DM training.

2. Complain publically or privately if their purchased training course does not meet their expectations due to personal or professional issues caused by the instructor.

3. Expect a full refund if they cannot complete their training course, because the instructor has imposed non-sanctified standards and/or imposes additional and unofficial requirements that cause additional expense to the student... or if the instructor refused to teach the student because the student could not, or would not, meet those unofficial standards.

Sure. But PADI would want to hear the whole story before any reprimand would take place. If the Instructor repeatedly dismissed students who were wearing something other than a poodle jacket, traditional primary 2nd and octo, and a weight belt, then I agree that the Instructor should be dismissed.

I'm pretty sure that we are barking up the same tree here.

 

[SubMariner]

So after the 2nd time we went out with some students doing their OW course as a DMC and seeing me set up my gear, my instructor told me that he didn't want me to use my BP/W and my long hose configuration for OW dives anymore

The reason was that he didn't want the OW students to be confused about my gear. Although I don't quite agree with that statement, I intend to comply with his instructions. I can't help but feel bummed out about using a jacket BCD and back to using more weights.

What would you have done?

Frankly, I didn't read through all 7 pages. And perhaps it's already been said, but as simplistic as it may seem the Instructor is running the course & the DM is the Certified Assistant.

Ultimately, the Instructor is the one who organizes all the resources associated with the course, including how the Certified Assistant is utilized. So, as "bummed" as you were with the Instructor's equipment preferences, if you want to work with that Instructor you need to take it in stride.

As for all the comments from people regarding this particular Instructor's gear preferences... deal with it. If as a DM you don't want to work with a particular Instructor because they don't share your gear philosophy... don't!

That's it, that's all...

 

[hypertech]

SubMariner,

Your comments make sense for a DM. If an instructor doesn't like a DM's equipment, he doesn't have to hire them. If a DM thinks an instructor is a jerk, don't work for him.

But, this is a DMC - a student who paid for a course, not a DM. I can't think of any good reason for an instructor to demand a DMC wear different gear unless that gear is somehow causing a performance problem.

 

[leabre]

But, this is a DMC - a student who paid for a course, not a DM. I can't think of any good reason for an instructor to demand a DMC wear different gear unless that gear is somehow causing a performance problem.

Most DM courses where I live, when you take a course the shop hopes that you'll work with them to drive business in some way. Thus, they want you in their gear during the course but more importantly, if you're working for them in full capacity and insured, you're wearing the uniform of not only what the shop carries, but specifically what they want the clients to buy.

Ultimately it's up to the instructor, and if going through a shop, that will include gear that the shop prefers. If independent instructor, then who knows (in the area where I live).

 

[The Chairman]

But, this is a DMC - a student who paid for a course, not a DM.

The DM course is the Diving Community's version of indentured servitude. Really. In this gig, the student pays for the privilege of being a volunteer grunt. While it's honorable for the student, I do see some shops and instructors abuse the system. At least, they require far more than I could ever tolerate.

However, in this situation, the Instructor is the alpha dog and you must follow his lead or find another pack. I think it's funny that many here think the instructor is "short sighted" based on the fact that he has asked this one student to NOT use his BPW. Very few recreational divers use, or want to use, a BPW. ScubaBoard is an anomaly in this respect. That being said, I can think of at least three scenarios where the instructor would not want his DMC in this type of gear.

1. Remedial. Perhaps the instructor feels that the DMC needs to work on his basic skill set. This is especially important if the DMC is planning on becoming an instructor or even contemplating it. After all, an instructor should be teaching in the type of gear his students are using. Time and experience in that gear will pay off for the DMC when it comes to developing that demonstration quality.
2. Distraction. Quite often a newly minted hog/long hose diver becomes evangelistic about their gear set up and not even realize it. This can create a distraction during the class and needs to be addressed. Quite often the best or easiest remedy is to remove the source of distraction rather than use class time trying to show the issue to the DMC.
3. Comfort. I really couldn't see having a DMC in a gear configuration that I am not personally familiar with. How would I be able to answer basic questions without losing some control. If I don't have time or the inclination to become familiar with it, then I don't want to have it become a distraction. I know I would feel uncomfortable if a DMC came to my OW class with a Kirby helmet on, no matter HOW adept they are at using it.

Obviously, the instructor is competent according to the original poster. So there is something here that we can not garner through the internet. Rather than ASSUME that the instructor is somehow lacking, perhaps we should open our own minds and try to see the other side of that coin.

As a final note, my "teaching" status changes after the pool. My relationship with my students goes from trainer to mentor/challenger as they will have had their skills mostly perfected by then. Consequently, I will almost always wear a long hose during OW and for AOW dives because I am quite comfortable with them, and I want my students to see different configurations. You might even catch me in a small set of doubles as well.

 

[Ste Wart]

[*]Remedial. Perhaps the instructor feels that the DMC needs to work on his basic skill set. This is especially important if the DMC is planning on becoming an instructor or even contemplating it. After all, an instructor should be teaching in the type of gear his students are using. Time and experience in that gear will pay off for the DMC when it comes to developing that demonstration quality.

Let's take one of the DM duties; namely the Scuba Review. A DM is required to be able to demonstrate all the skills on the scuba review. We grade them on the DMC etc etc.
Now if the Inst, insists on making the DM wear standard equipment during the course, is he also expected to switch to standard equipment everytime he gets a Scuba Review? Doubtful.

In the past I've always grabbed a shop BCD to do Confined 5 skills as this is the only time I've felt the need for similar equipment as the student. However, for some bizarre reason, the dive shop I was recently working at banned me using any shop equipment (I left shortly after). So I ended up teaching Confined 5 in my one-piece. It made no difference to the student.
In fact it's strange how oblivious to equipment students really are. The amount of times Ive stopped a student putting on my BP is incredible.
Me 'Uh, that's mine'
Student 'Are you sure'
Me 'Pretty sure, I own it!!!!!!'

 

[SubMariner]

SubMariner,

Your comments make sense for a DM. If an instructor doesn't like a DM's equipment, he doesn't have to hire them. If a DM thinks an instructor is a jerk, don't work for him.

But, this is a DMC - a student who paid for a course, not a DM. I can't think of any good reason for an instructor to demand a DMC wear different gear unless that gear is somehow causing a performance problem.

Most DM courses where I live, when you take a course the shop hopes that you'll work with them to drive business in some way. Thus, they want you in their gear during the course but more importantly, if you're working for them in full capacity and insured, you're wearing the uniform of not only what the shop carries, but specifically what they want the clients to buy.

Ultimately it's up to the instructor, and if going through a shop, that will include gear that the shop prefers. If independent instructor, then who knows (in the area where I live).

Leabre has basically addressed your concerns, but to expand:

DMC is training for the first Pro level in PADI. Hence it isn't just about "taking a course" but rather prep for looking BEYOND your personal wants/needs as a diver. So the fact that an Instructor can mandate what gear you use to assist in one of h/h courses falls directly in line with that philosophy. Because ultimately it's not about YOU at that level but about YOUR STUDENTS.

Case in point: I remember one particular DMC who exhibited a very egocentric attitude about the course up to/including actually ARGUING with me IN FRONT OF STUDENTS about the fact that I had chosen him to be on the boat "supervising" exits & entries rather than actually being in the water one one particular dive. (Of course he himself was being supervised by another Instructor on board, but I digress...) Do you think he was within his rights to do this because he was "a student who paid for a course"?

 

[hypertech]

Yep, if he's a student and unhappy he should complain. If that sabotages any future working relationship, well, that might be the outcome.

My perspective, if an instructor is such a jerk I can't get along with him as a DMC, I certainly wouldn't work with him as a DM.

Perhaps my underlying issue with this is demanding a student to buy shop gear as a DMC. If you want your DMs in shop gear, fine, but in so doing most likely the DM will buy it at a significant savings. Forcing them to buy it to participate as a DMC before the discount becomes available just seems like another way to prey on a student and force more money out of them. This hardly seems to be the way you should treat someone you are trying to start a professional relationship with.

IMHO, the bottom line is that DMC's should wear whatever gear they want. If it works out that they will be continuing as a DM with the shop, then requirements on what equipment is acceptable can be imposed at that time.

 

[leabre]

I asked a couple instructors recently whether they would allow students in their leadership classes to use gear that the instructor is not familiar with or otherwise different than the "norm". While I thought the instructors would dissallow because of the Great Scuba Industry Conpiracy(tm) I was suprised to learn the reasons have less to do with shop politics and more to do with professional integrity.

The instructors responded that they dissallow unfamiliar gear and configurations because they do not want to be put in a position where students ask questions that the instructor is unqualified to answer appropriately.