BP/W is just a tool

[Scott L]

What do you mean? You said that the BPW is the choice of the best divers and that you have two yourself.

BPW is my choice and I have two as well. Ergo, I'm one of the best divers in the world.

Another useless nonconstructive post. I admire your consistency.

 

[reddiver970]

I may have to drive over to divedoggies house and kick him in the yarbles for starting this thread.

 

[boulderjohn]

In fact, scubaboard would be WORTHLESS if incorrect views would be left unchallenged, in the manner of ads in scuba magaines like ROdales ( the absolute nonsense of "their testing" of gear provided to them by paid advertisers).

Do you have proof to support this statement...or is this yet another anecdotal assertion from the BP&W fringe ?; -)

Here is a link to an old article about the time the company that makes Force Fins successfully challenged Rodales about their evaluation system. It is the only article I could find quickly, and it is not comprehensive. To summarize, Force Fins was very successful in showing that its negative ratings were based on its unwillingness to advertise.

A good friend of mine was once in a leadership capacity with one of the biggest diver operators in the world. They got a lot of positive press in the popular dive magazines. No wonder--they wrote their own reviews, and the magazines published them verbatim about twice a year.

 

[boulderjohn]

One more thing about reviews in magazines...

A number of years ago I was teaching journalism at the high school level and advising the student newspaper. Our budget from the school district was pitiful, and we relied heavily on what little advertising we could sell to publish. One day a large pizza company offered to place a full page color ad in every issue, which would have by itself ended all our financial concerns for the year. All we had to do in return was run an article in which we did a taste comparison of different pizzas, with their pizza coming out as the clear winner.

I talked with the owner and said we could not do it because it was not ethical. He looked at me like I had two heads. If I was going to teach journalism to students, he said, then I needed to teach real journalism, and his offer was an example of journalism in the real world.

We didn't run the ad.

 

[danvolker]

So is Frank still with us? From how you described him, he'd be at the top of anyones list!

I think he is still alive, and living in Virginia......I would love to find him and catch up with him on diving, and life in general. How to do this is another story. He is not exactly the internet guru....I doubt he even has an email address.

If I do find him, I may well do some kind of story on him, and at the very least, I would want to interview him on the Jewfish issue....many of you here on SB may know that the Fishing lobbies and Florida regulatory agencies are "considering" taking jewfish ( goliath groupers) off of the endangered list, and adding them to a species with a fishing quota.....This is one of the WORST ideas the fishing groups have ever come up with, and one the diving community may need to "wade in" to, and lobby against. Frank used to have 16mm bolex film/video footage of thousands of jewfish on the shallow reefs off of Palm Beach--shot in the 60's. They were everywhere, with 600 pounders all over even the BLUE HERON BRIDGE area.
Fisherman hated jewfish back then...they believed that the jewfish were eating all "their" lobster, and eating too many of the targeted fishing species....additionally, jewfish were hated by fisherman for getting into their nets, and as huge as they were, destroying the nets....boo hoo....
Frank could tell everyone first hand, as one of the divers who shot hundreds of them, that it was not like going after any other species.....With most fish the spearfisherman would go after, like grey grouper or mutton snapper, they would hit them hard every year, year in, year out, and throughout the 60's, 70's, and 80's, all this massive spearing did little in the "day to day" appearance of the fish species on the reefs....however, this changed dramatically for the jewfish population, as the reproductive populations were decimated, and no replacements materialized---all of a sudden, there were no longer any big groups of jewfish, and within a few years of that, there were no jewfish, period.....Then a few years later, the laws on this changed, and the jewfish became protected. When you let fisherman control the laws on fishing, I guess this is what you would expect.
A first hand account of this by Frank would be pretty awesome, I would think!
And he would be the first now, to say he would have wished he had known better, back in those days.....he grew up in a time when the school systems and even TV shows made it CLEAR that the oceans were an 'inexaustible" food supply. I remember this myself, from 7th grade science class ( back in the 60's) .

Regards,
DanV

 

[boulderjohn]

OK, I, too, have been diving all over the Caribbean and seen divemasters with incredible skill in jacket BCDs. I wear a jacket BCD in the pool, because that is what my students are wearing and what they will likely encounter when they, too, go to the Caribbean and rent equipment. That kind of BCD will do very well in those conditions. So will any other kind of BCD. (BTW, the operator I use in Cozumel has all its DMs in Transpacs.)

When I dive for pleasure in tropical locations, I use a back inflate BCD. When the weight is properly distributed, I like the way I trim out in it. When I do the OW dives in singles for students locally (which does not happen all that much here in Colorado), I use that same back inflate BCD. That is because I have owned that piece of gear for a number of years, I have been reserving my few available purchase dollars for items I really need, and a singles wing is not something I really need right now. I want the back inflate BCD rather than one of the shop's jacket BCDs because I dive in a dry suit locally, and I do not want to dive with a jacket over a dry suit. I know some people do it, but I don't want the jacket inflation to interfere with the dry suit inflation. I don't believe a jacket is the best choice in that situation, so I will not use one.

When I dive doubles, especially while hanging stage and deco bottles, I wear a BP/W. I really don't see any other choice there.

Last week I dived Puget Sound for the first time, wearing a whole wad of underwear under a dry suit while in salt water. I needed a lot of lead, much more than I ever imagined I would. I was very glad I was wearing a SS backplate to help distribute some of the weight I needed. If I had to wear my back inflate BCD instead, I would have had to find more places to place lead.

Finally, I never feel uncomfortable in my BP/W, either with doubles or when I borrow someone else's singles wing.

So, in agreement with Kent....

• In certain conditions, any BCD will do just fine, assuming one has the skill to use it.
• In certain conditions, some BCDs are preferable.

So, in disagreement with Kent....

• I don't find a BCD uncomfortable at all.
• In all conditions, a BP/W will work well.

When I get around to it (probably very soon), I will get rid of my back inflate BCD and pick up a singles wing. It will greatly simplify my life and my storage space. Since my backplate will serve me well in whatever conditions I dive, it seems a logical choice if only for its versatility.

If I were only diving the tropics, I might feel different.

 

[danvolker]

Funny how every time I watch those oceanic documentaries about sharks, fish, reef, ad infinitum, most of these photographer/videographer divers use the poodle jackets yet they moved effortlessly through the water while handling these ungainly devices and capturing great shots of marine life.

Sounds like it's an operator's issue than an equipment's issue.

The poor diver will always blame his/her equipment.

Fnfalman....It sounds like you have never tried pushing a big pro level still camera with housing and 2 big strobe arms....or one of the serious video camera systems....there IS NO streamlining benefit possible for one of these pro shooters, with them pushing around one of these monsters. Your swimming with these is slow. Period. My wife shoots with a canon 5d mark II in a Sea and Sea Housing with two huge arms and Inon strobes....while she is a competitive bike racer herself, there is NO WAY she can be efficient in the water, pushing this.....she is not going to really enjoy much difference between a halcyon and a zeagle or a Diverite, or a scubapro....most photographers are going to worry about being able to be stable in the water collumn, or to be able to get really heavy on the bottom, to be rock steady. The criteria for bc systems for them is nothing like it is for us.....Also, photographers don't consider themselves to be an alternate air source for their buddy--typically, a pro shooter does not dive with a buddy, they dive with a "dive slave"...The dive slave carries more gear for the shooter, and does any of the grunt work the shooter does not want to do..donation of a long hose primary could very well fall into the dive slave's jobs, but the dive slave would not expect the shooter to even know if he/she needed air


And.....so here is one place you could claim a vest or transpack could be a "good" tool for this kind of job....these pro shooters DO NOT dive without their cameras..typically they get righteous if you suggest something so foolish ..the benefits of a bp/wing are hard to interest this kind of diver with.....Certainly they could use a Halcyon for any of these things, but it does not stand with so much performance separation, for this intended use.

Then there is Jimmy Abernethy, one of the top shark videographers and top shark still photographers in the world...If the Discovery Channel or National Geo wants tiger sharks, or hammerheads, or bullsharks, Jimmy is their "go-to guy". Jimmy is one of the fastest swimmers in the human race ..though as fast as he is, he may have an extra gene set or two....in any event, not only does Jimmy Abernethy dive a halcyon 29 pound wing, he was bitten once from behind by a 16 foot or so hamerhead, and the halcyon SSplate and wing saved him from injury--- beyond a crescent moon shaped bunch of small pin pricks in his butt. The sharks teeth hit the plate and did nothing, and the wing took the other part, and left a nice crescent moon imprint of the shark's bite. Robert Carmichael, owner of Halcyon at the time, agreed to WARRANTEE the wing, and give Jimmy a brand new wing.
Tell me how many Rangers or transpacs saved any divers from being bitten in two, or that got warrateed because a shark was able to bite through them

Regards,
DanV

 

[fnfalman]

Fnfalman....It sounds like you have never tried pushing a big pro level still camera with housing and 2 big strobe arms....or one of the serious video camera systems....there IS NO streamlining benefit possible for one of these pro shooters, with them pushing around one of these monsters. Your swimming with these is slow. Period. My wife shoots with a canon 5d mark II in a Sea and Sea Housing with two huge arms and Inon strobes....while she is a competitive bike racer herself, there is NO WAY she can be efficient in the water, pushing this.....she is not going to really enjoy much difference between a halcyon and a zeagle or a Diverite, or a scubapro....most photographers are going to worry about being able to be stable in the water collumn, or to be able to get really heavy on the bottom, to be rock steady. The criteria for bc systems for them is nothing like it is for us.....Also, photographers don't consider themselves to be an alternate air source for their buddy--typically, a pro shooter does not dive with a buddy, they dive with a "dive slave"...The dive slave carries more gear for the shooter, and does any of the grunt work the shooter does not want to do..donation of a long hose primary could very well fall into the dive slave's jobs, but the dive slave would not expect the shooter to even know if he/she needed air


And.....so here is one place you could claim a vest or transpack could be a "good" tool for this kind of job....these pro shooters DO NOT dive without their cameras..typically they get righteous if you suggest something so foolish ..the benefits of a bp/wing are hard to interest this kind of diver with.....Certainly they could use a Halcyon for any of these things, but it does not stand with so much performance separation, for this intended use.

Once again, you've made my point. Some tools are right for some jobs and some tools will work just fine one way or another.

Then there is Jimmy Abernethy, one of the top shark videographers and top shark still photographers in the world...If the Discovery Channel or National Geo wants tiger sharks, or hammerheads, or bullsharks, Jimmy is their "go-to guy". Jimmy is one of the fastest swimmers in the human race ..though as fast as he is, he may have an extra gene set or two....in any event, not only does Jimmy Abernethy dive a halcyon 29 pound wing, he was bitten once from behind by a 16 foot or so hamerhead, and the halcyon SSplate and wing saved him from injury--- beyond a crescent moon shaped bunch of small pin pricks in his butt. The sharks teeth hit the plate and did nothing, and the wing took the other part, and left a nice crescent moon imprint of the shark's bite. Robert Carmichael, owner of Halcyon at the time, agreed to WARRANTEE the wing, and give Jimmy a brand new wing.
Tell me how many Rangers or transpacs saved any divers from being bitten in two, or that got warrateed because a shark was able to bite through them

Regards,
DanV

Maybe because the Rangers and Transpac divers are smart enough to stick their dive buddies and bleed them to be sharkbait?

 

[fnfalman]

Another useless nonconstructive post. I admire your consistency.

So, is the BPW the choice for the best divers or not?

BTW, in the bigger scheme of all things scuba related, my postings are probably about as useful as yours.

 

[danvolker]

Do you have proof to support this statement...or is this yet another anecdotal assertion from the BP&W fringe ?; -)

Blowfish,
One of my pet peeves is the Gear testing done by magazines like rodales on fins.
I have dove with a great many of the fins they have tested through the years, and I can tell you with utmost certainty, that they will claim a fin to be the best, which is no where near the best....and to make matters worse, they consistently have ignored the fastest most efficient fins for over a decade....the elite level freedive fins which would destroy the typical "Best of the Bunch" fin tests that they put out like a News Flash. I have yet to pick up a Rodales test and see a test including C4 Mustangs ( fastest most efficient carbon fiber freedive fin I have ever tried) or the Blue Water Special by Specialfins.com --which is the 2nd best fin I have ever tried or owned....1st and 2nd best for either freediving or scubadiving--if desire is for maximum cruising pace with minimum muscular effort and minimum breathing effort/minimum elevation in heart rate from attaining high cruising pace....
The few times they have tested any freedive fins ( and I mean "few' they picked a lame fin, and a tester that did not have enough time on the fins to learn how to kick them MORE EFFICIENTLY than scuba fins--it is a different technique....the testors are very happy to ignore issues like this.

You should also remember the big Force Fin versus Split Fins issue....Split fins came out with a few big brands throwing huge money at the dive magazines. Force Fins spent relatively small dollars with the rags....Suddenly, the splits were all the rage, and the testors proclaimed them to be awesome....the reality was, Force Fins had done a split concept, way before this new "Split fin" invention, and should have had the true news story--they got robbed.....and then Force Fins had models for weak divers, models for stronger divers, models even for Navy SEAL type divers....yet they did not spend the big pay off bucks, and Split Fins won the big reviews. The whole affair reeked, and this alone should demonstrate that Gear Tests in big print magazines are no more than a sick joke.

Regards,
DanV