Yukon tangent thread

[mdb]

Whenever I read these types of statements, I can't help but think that the person's bad buddy experiences are largely self inflicted. And these self inflicted bad experiences lead one to flawed conclusions.

If we were to draw an analogy to cars... lets say that you only ever bought and drove ill maintained and poorly treated used cars. You might walk away with the impression that all cars suck. You might say that you prefer to walk or ride a bicycle since you have never had any times where walking or your bicycle almost led you to disaster (brakes failing, car breaking down far from civilization, etc.)

On the other hand, some people choose to drive only well maintained and cared for cars. Regular oil changes and so on.

Another scubaboard member has a signature line that states, "If you have a bad dive buddy, it's not your buddy's fault." Those words are very true.

Well, this could be quite true-perhaps that is why I prefer to Solo dive. I do maintain my cars and bikes but, maybe, not dive buddies, In one case, a diver ripping my reg from my mouth-that was a diver I had been diving with about 150+ times, a USMC officer, very well fit, ran out of air while looking for a final legal ab off Pt. Loma. He just lost it and went on to my reg like his Mothers Teat. I made a free ascent. We stayed friends, maybe that was my bad choice. On another occasion an engineer with a major SCUBA company was testing a new 1st stage at about 120-140 FSW off Grand Cayman, his test reg failed, he came and sat on my head, taking my primary-one of his companies regs, by the way-I went to my secondary, an old Poseidon Cyklon 300, we got it all sorted out and made it to the surface. No real harm done. We had a nice dinner that evening.

Again I agree with your quote; "If you have a bad dive buddy, it's not your buddy's fault." That is the primary reason I prefer solo.

 

[divemaster dave]

So I can't believe they aren't checking certifications. Ryan repeatedly tells everyone at each site to dive within your certification and personal limits.

I don't think anyone said that they specifically weren't checking certs. Just that it came up that some boat ops don't consider this common practice.

I missed this statement. I ask......seriously?

It's been a few years since I bought regs, but I remember getting cert carded at the LDS. Perhaps it was a new employee or something. With all of the internet businesses today it would be impossible to control who buy the gear off the web. I always get checked at new dive shops for fills, if they don't know me. I guess that is a more fair thing to say.

 

[TheEngineer]

If I was a divemaster, I would have said divemaster. And yes, I can make that statement with authority. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know the difference between being able to swim and not being able to swim. Trying to drown after "swimming" 10 yards = unable to swim. I also know what a C-card looks like. What more do I need to know, in your expert opinion? As for witnessing this trend, I have seen it as have the instructors I work with whose experience largely predates NAUI or PADI. It has been noted by instructors in this thread.

You need more actual knowledge and less arrogance.
And as you are interesting in noting the instructors in this thread, I Am one of the instructors in this thread, genius.

Forgive me. I meant competent instructors. As for needing more knowledge, you still haven't stated one item that I am incorrect about. A person who can't cover the length of a pool safely cannot swim. If you believe otherwise, you exemplify the exact problem I am referring to. Don't feel too bad, you are not alone.

I don't think I do. I already know enough people like this to fear for the general safety of the diving public. I think you need to stop denying an obvious and growing problem.

I am not. You simply cannot think you have that great of an experience base to make such a ridiculous statement.

Are you going to tell me next that I need a telescope and an astrophysics degree to recognize that the sky is blue?

One does not need to be an AI, Divemaster or Instructor to participate in training provided we aren't signing anything off or giving direction outside the direction of the instructing staff. It is clear what certification I hold by referring to my profile.

Not true at all. You must be a dm, which for Naui is an AI, to assist in any courses, and then you must be under supervision of the instructor. You say you are a master, but there is no designation of such for Naui. THere is master diver, but you don't seem to understand that that does give you license to assist classes.

Incorrect. But I'm not surprised. A master diver cannot give instruction, but they can participate with classes in a variety of capacities. Including pulling people who can't swim from the water.

Fine, SDI then. The point stands that only one agency certifies for this and I doubt (but don't know) that he was carrying that card.

I have no idea yet, either. Maybe we will find out.

It wouldn't really matter if he had the training, either way. He is dead. Either he didn't have training and was allowed to dive in a way he was not prepared for, or he had the training and failed to utilize it properly. In any case, these actions resulted in a dead diver. The only thing a cert card would show at this point is that the boat is slightly less negligent. They are still screwed for leaving a diver in the water.

 

[TheEngineer]

Well it is hard to say what is common for all of CA as there is a lot of coastline, a lot of boats, and several different cultures. What I have observed up here in Monterey (Middle CA) and one Channel Island trip (SoCal) is that the boats provide transportation. They will choose dive sites appropriate for the weather conditions and if informed the level of training of the divers, if there isn't a defined destination (like the Yukon) already established. The only "buddying up" I've seen is the DM asking if anyone needed a buddy and allowing those people to buddy up on their own. I don't recall any boat actually checking cards but on the liability waiver there is a spot to write down your cert information.

I've never been on a boat that HASN'T checked cards. The good ones even go so far as to request to see your dive log.

 

[Adobo]

Well, this could be quite true-perhaps that is why I prefer to Solo dive. I do maintain my cars and bikes but, maybe, not dive buddies, In one case, a diver ripping my reg from my mouth-that was a diver I had been diving with about 150+ times, a USMC officer, very well fit, ran out of air while looking for a final legal ab off Pt. Loma. He just lost it and went on to my reg like his Mothers Teat. I made a free ascent. We stayed friends, maybe that was my bad choice. On another occasion an engineer with a major SCUBA company was testing a new 1st stage at about 120-140 FSW off Grand Cayman, his test reg failed, he came and sat on my head, taking my primary-one of his companies regs, by the way-I went to my secondary, an old Poseidon Cyklon 300, we got it all sorted out and made it to the surface. No real harm done. We had a nice dinner that evening.

I don't even really know where to start with this but let me just say two things
1) being very fit and a USMC officer does not give your friend a free pass at managing his gas. And good buddies manage their gas.
2) in your second example, gee, what could possible go wrong? Testing new first state at 130 feet? You think maybe a redundant first stage (maybe on doubles) would have been a good idea for this dive?

Again I agree with your quote; "If you have a bad dive buddy, it's not your buddy's fault." That is the primary reason I prefer solo.

I have no issue as to how you choose to solve this problem. I just think that some conclusions that you are drawing here, particularly the one about always being solo anyway, are based on scenarios where outcomes were actually quite predictable well before the dive began.

Anyway, back on topic.

 

[mikemill]

Any boat that asked to see my log is gonna have a hard time. My log is electronic and on my desktop at home. I have a sensus in my pocket but that wouldn't bee of much help.

 

[boulderjohn]

I've never been on a boat that HASN'T checked cards. The good ones even go so far as to request to see your dive log.

Other than for my professional certifications. I have had my log requested exactly once in my life, and it would have been no big deal if I had not had one.

I get the sense from your posts, that you regularly dive among some people very different from my experiences. In fact, I would say the vast majority of your experiences are quite different from anything I have ever seen in my life.

Take a look outside when you get a chance. What color is the sky?

 

[cruiser]

The same reason your card is supposed to get checked when you buy dive gear and get air fills.

I've never been carded when buying dive gear. And I've purchased from a variety of places.

 

[Rainer]

Where are you diving? Seriously, please list what boats in SoCal you've actually dived from. I've been on over a dozen and not a single one has ever asked for a log book.

I've never been on a boat that HASN'T checked cards. The good ones even go so far as to request to see your dive log.

 

[TheEngineer]

It matters.

1. Holding your breath while ascending WILL kill you.
2. Diving solo WILL NOT kill you. (no matter how much you scream about it).

That's the reason it's the number one rule. Actually, I was taught it was rule 1 through 3.

I can also say that 100% of my whopping 183 logged dives have been solo dives. I always dive solo, because I am the only one I can depend on 100% of the time. The fact that I sometimes have someone else in the water within a few fin kicks does not change the fact that I am diving solo.

I've had a camera with me for almost every one of those dives, and a speargun for maybe 40%. Sometimes I have a camera AND a speargun in my hands. I have yet to run out of air, suffer dcs, or soil my diapers. I have experienced equipment hiccups and failures, and dealt with them in ways that either resolved the problem, or kept me from being killed by my own solo-diving stupidity. I've also helped other divers with safety issues underwater, all while carrying a camera, or speargun, or both.

For some reason, you suffer a delusion that solo diving = death. I don't disagree that diving with a redundant scuba system, brain, and musculoskeletal system is SAFE-ER. But many, many people in this world execute solo dives all the time without suffering a fatality, and buddy groups kill each other often enough to prove that it's no guarantee of safety. The SAFEST divers I know, are the ones that treat EVERY dive as solo, and are comfortable with themselves underwater, even if other divers are not around.

You clearly have some issues with adults making informed decisions about their own safety. I'm sure the world would be a better place if you were in charge. You could take away our sharp scissors and fatty foods, and butterflies would spring forth from toilets everywhere, but you're not in charge, we're all adults here, and nobody needs you telling them that buddies are compulsory for scuba diving.

Maybe the mods are deleting the posts where I have very clearly stated that I have nothing against solo diving under the right conditions.