Should a Divemaster speak up?
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DMC's can be very valuable resources of info. Many times students that are having difficulties will ask the DM or even DMC about them before they will talk to the instructor. They see the others as closer to their level and less intimidating. I was not intimidated by anyone but as DM had a few students who mistook the instructors remarks and attitude at times as arrogant and too busy to talk to them. They came to me and I went to the instructor with their concerns. I also saw students who were not ready for OW due to various issues. Some were referrals from others who did not take the time they should have with these people. Usually they did not get thru without more training. Once in awhile they did and up to a certain point I kept my mouth shut. The turning point came when there was a female student who was never and I mean never comfortable in the water. When she went to clear her mask one of the DM's had to be right there because there was a good chance she would bolt. But because her husband was spending ALOT of money to get the family certified, dad, mom, and 3 kids, and was buying gear from the shop we were told to just coax her thru and get her done. I had serious misgivings and spoke to the instructor and other DM about it. I was told she'll be fine to not say anything. I didn't. Until the weekend for checkouts came and she was a basket case. Finding every excuse to not get in the water, worrying about the kids who were like fish, afraid her husband would be mad if she didn;t get thru this, etc, I was assigned to take her down as her buddy.
She freaked at 7 feet and I had to grab her to slow her down. Got her to the surface and she was in tears. I asked her what was wrong she said everything. She did not want to do this. I said then why are you. I'm doing it for them. I figured this. She asked me if I ever thought she would be a diver. By now the other DM had come up to see what the holdup was and he began to try and get her to go back down. I told him to back off that she was done. I then told her that based on what I had seen and her reaction now that no she should not become a diver. She looked so relieved! Well the other DM went back down and helped finish the others. I took her to shore and my wife and I talked to her and calmed her down.
When they came up I saw the DM and instructor talking. He came up asked me what happened and I told him. He asked me if I actually told her that she did not belong in the water as a diver. I said yes. He was pissed. That was one of the last classes I did with that shop and do not regret my actions at all. To have certified this woman given her skills or lack of, her attitude, and her fears would have been irresponsible, reckless, and downright dangerous to her and everyone around her. Some people should not be in the water. If I would not trust a new OW diver to dive with my kids I have no business certifying them. Students should not be assembling gear wrong, flailing around and hitting others, or be a general train wreck on checkouts.
Standards be damned. There is a moral and ethical side to being a dive pro. That side would find your son speaking to the instructor about his concerns and expressing his reservations. If that does not work then a letter or call to the agency's quality control dept is not only in order but called for.
He may indeed need to find another instructor or shop. If he does do these things and needs to find another instructor, all I can say is if he were in my area he is exactly the kind of DM I'd want. If he keeps his mouth shut and ignores the issue just to get thru the course- I would not even want to dive with him.
She freaked at 7 feet and I had to grab her to slow her down. Got her to the surface and she was in tears. I asked her what was wrong she said everything. She did not want to do this. I said then why are you. I'm doing it for them. I figured this. She asked me if I ever thought she would be a diver. By now the other DM had come up to see what the holdup was and he began to try and get her to go back down. I told him to back off that she was done. I then told her that based on what I had seen and her reaction now that no she should not become a diver. She looked so relieved! Well the other DM went back down and helped finish the others. I took her to shore and my wife and I talked to her and calmed her down.
When they came up I saw the DM and instructor talking. He came up asked me what happened and I told him. He asked me if I actually told her that she did not belong in the water as a diver. I said yes. He was pissed. That was one of the last classes I did with that shop and do not regret my actions at all. To have certified this woman given her skills or lack of, her attitude, and her fears would have been irresponsible, reckless, and downright dangerous to her and everyone around her. Some people should not be in the water. If I would not trust a new OW diver to dive with my kids I have no business certifying them. Students should not be assembling gear wrong, flailing around and hitting others, or be a general train wreck on checkouts.
Standards be damned. There is a moral and ethical side to being a dive pro. That side would find your son speaking to the instructor about his concerns and expressing his reservations. If that does not work then a letter or call to the agency's quality control dept is not only in order but called for.
He may indeed need to find another instructor or shop. If he does do these things and needs to find another instructor, all I can say is if he were in my area he is exactly the kind of DM I'd want. If he keeps his mouth shut and ignores the issue just to get thru the course- I would not even want to dive with him.
As a divemaster, yes, I do have frank and open discussions with the instructor. Even before I was a DM candidate I was able to have those discussions with the two particular instructors I work with. I work with them to make their jobs easier. That does on (many) occasions result in me working one on one with a student.
Ken
I team up the OW students..each team buddy checks each others gear..prior to my final inspection....when working with a DMC..especially a "newbie".. I'll have buggered something up..for the DMC to find..then the DMC and I will go over the student's final gear inspection together (can't depend on a DMC to notice/fix a snafu.. a DMC is in training, in the process of learning to be a Pro..the point is..gear snafus happen...a pro needs the know how to correct whatever comes their way...
I'm thinking the Instructor may have put too much faith in the DMC re: gear checks.
As for the abilities of an Open Water diver?.. Only an Instructor can make that decision..a certified diver who is now a DMC student ..couldn't, shouldn't.. this DMC should talk/debrief with the Instructor about what's been observed...if he didn't..why not?? What kind of DM does he want to be?
FWIW...I wan't there either...so don't know...perhaps the Instructor was just as disappointed in his DMC conduct. as the DMC was..with the OpenWater diver(s).
am sure this discussion is to be continued..:cool2:
I'm thinking the Instructor may have put too much faith in the DMC re: gear checks.
As for the abilities of an Open Water diver?.. Only an Instructor can make that decision..a certified diver who is now a DMC student ..couldn't, shouldn't.. this DMC should talk/debrief with the Instructor about what's been observed...if he didn't..why not?? What kind of DM does he want to be?
FWIW...I wan't there either...so don't know...perhaps the Instructor was just as disappointed in his DMC conduct. as the DMC was..with the OpenWater diver(s).
am sure this discussion is to be continued..:cool2:
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That would be a bad move. "Pass" or "Fail" is the instructor's call (or the AI if there is one), not the DMC's, and nothing good will come from a DMC bringing up this topic with the instructor.
Questioning the instructor's decision amounts to: "Hi, I see you passed <x>. Are you corrupt or do you really not understand <agency name>'s standards?"
A more important question would be "Does your son want to learn/work with an instructor that does things like this?"
Terry
I just recently had something interesting happen in one of my classes. I had a gentleman who went through most of the class but hasn't yet finished it. He was originally in a hurry to finish to go on a diving trip with some friends. He would get almost confrontational with me when he had difficulties & I would try show him alternative ways to slove his problem. He completed his classroom session & finished all but the last session of his pool. At that last session he told me he was actually terrified of the water, yet he never showed it until the last session. He said he was pressured into taking lessons by his traveling companions. His biggest complaint was that his ears hurt him on decent to 10ft & that he could not equalize. Whether this is truly the case or not, I can not say. He had been down to the bottom of the deep end in the previous 2 sessions, but did complain about his ears. On that last night, on descent, he would signal to me that his ears hurt & then try to bolt to the surface using his BC infaltor from 7- 8 ft. Of course, I was right there & slowed him down & warned him each time when we got to the surface. This happened 3 times. At the last time he bolted, I stearnly warned him not to touch his inflator again. The odd thing was, through out the class until the last session, his skills were calm & solid as we practiced them time & again. After 45 min of trying to work with him, he finally decided he'd had enough. He told me that he would go see an ENT Specialist about his ears & if cleared, would return. We'll see,...... I did not sign him off for his pool session because 1. he still had a few last skills to learn & 2. After his displays (bolting while laying on his inflator) of how uncomfortable he was.
Last week the group leader for this trip came in & inquired to my student's progress. The head instructor called me to the front of the shop to give the report. I told the group leader that the student had not completed his pool sessions & that because of that the the bolting, I could not sign him off as being ready to do his Open Water check- out dives. The group leader seemed surprised at what I told him & then asked me if I would "let him slide by to go to the open water check- out dives, even though he had not completed all his pool skills". I told him "absolutely not." "Not only would it be against standards , but he would be a danger to himself & those he was diving with". I also made the leader think when I said, "if he can't get down to 10ft in a pool, how would he be able to get down to 30ft in the ocean?" My statement about not signing him off was not made because the head instructor was standing right there & that's what he would have wanted to hear, but because I have enough pride that I want my students to be able to handle whatever may come their way that is within their training (aka standards), comfortably. If a student doesn't pass the muster of any section of the training, I'm not going to sign them off, period. It is my name that goes on their card. I want to be comfortable in knowing that they can survive & enjoy themselves below the surface. If they want, I will continue to work with them until they are proficient, confident & comfortable or decide that diving is not for them. I would hope that if one of our Dive Cons (even candidates) sees that a student is not up to par & that for some reason, I'm not catching it, that they would discuss their concerns with me. I am personally open to constructive criticism & welcome the input, as long as done in a civil manner & in an appropriate venue.
Last week the group leader for this trip came in & inquired to my student's progress. The head instructor called me to the front of the shop to give the report. I told the group leader that the student had not completed his pool sessions & that because of that the the bolting, I could not sign him off as being ready to do his Open Water check- out dives. The group leader seemed surprised at what I told him & then asked me if I would "let him slide by to go to the open water check- out dives, even though he had not completed all his pool skills". I told him "absolutely not." "Not only would it be against standards , but he would be a danger to himself & those he was diving with". I also made the leader think when I said, "if he can't get down to 10ft in a pool, how would he be able to get down to 30ft in the ocean?" My statement about not signing him off was not made because the head instructor was standing right there & that's what he would have wanted to hear, but because I have enough pride that I want my students to be able to handle whatever may come their way that is within their training (aka standards), comfortably. If a student doesn't pass the muster of any section of the training, I'm not going to sign them off, period. It is my name that goes on their card. I want to be comfortable in knowing that they can survive & enjoy themselves below the surface. If they want, I will continue to work with them until they are proficient, confident & comfortable or decide that diving is not for them. I would hope that if one of our Dive Cons (even candidates) sees that a student is not up to par & that for some reason, I'm not catching it, that they would discuss their concerns with me. I am personally open to constructive criticism & welcome the input, as long as done in a civil manner & in an appropriate venue.
Horse poo, everything that goes on in that class is the DMs business. I am an active DM and after each class the instructors, DMs and DMCs get together to discuss the class. We discuss openly any and all problems, both our own and those of the sudents which is the way it should be. If that student later hurts themselves and sues all our butts are on the line, not just the instructor. I will give my opinion on a student to an instructor in a minute- after class in a professional manner if its something that can wait or during the class if its bad enough. If the instructor does not like it, we will discuss it with the shop owner and if I still think I am right, I will discuss it with PADI. As a DM I have a responcibility to the students, the instructor and the shop to point out something that is not right. If the instructor or shop disagrees then we will go from there but I have at least done my duty to point out an issue. We have a great instructor staff that encourages DM input so I don't ever think this will be an issue but if an instructor does not like me doing so, they can find another DM....
I say absolutely does not have a say in the matter. At best get this candidate is certified as a rescue diver and has no say in whether the OW candidate is certified or not. As for training his only roles are to assure a fun dive and all safety requirements are met.
If a student is as obviously uncomfortable & dangerous as reported, how can "all safety requirements be met" by not expressing concern of passing them without any more remedial work?
I ask my DMs and DMCs for input on students after each dive. After any discussion with a group of dive students I also ask my DMs and DMCs if they have any input. They are part of my team and I value their input and I expect them to be comfortable enough with me to come to me; if they aren't then I'm doing something wrong.
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