Pony practice...what do you do??

[burna]

O.k, I don't work in psi, so have to admit that was a bit of a guess-timate on my part. Just looked a bit low.

I just converted my min gas for ascent calc from bar to psi and came up with 650psi min (tank = 12 Litre) which is an ascent from 30m/100ft with a 1min stop at 15m/50ft and 3 min stop at 5m/15ft, (no reserve).

 

[GrumpyOldGuy]

WThis doesn't make any sense to me at all.

What's the point of a button gauge if you have the thing back mounted? How can you be "constantly monitoring to make sure I don't go OOG a 2nd time." ?
If you had a gauge you could read or had it stage rigged, then there would be no reason to worry about running out of air during the ascent.

The pony should be of sufficient size to allow you to conduct a normal ascent including all stops (deep if you want them) otherwise it is too small.

1) The point of the button gauge is to check before each dive that the pony is full. Also to check after each dive that I have not lost any air or after a drill to see how much air I used. It is not optimal, stage rigging would be closest to optimal I agree, but frankly it is a PITA if you have a camera in hand.

2) I am well aware of when my pony is running low, I can feel it for the last 5-8 breaths. I started diving in the good old J-valve days (sans SPG), it does not freak me out. That is why I have some unbalanced regulators.

3) Even assuming I had a readable SPG for use in the emergency ascent, what am I going to do if it indicates I am low on gas? I am already swimming up at 30FPM, the same rate I would do an ESA at. The only real advantage is having the confidence of the optional deep stop, but since I limit myself to 100', it is not critical.

4) Just to make it clear, I can ascend from 75' at 30FPM with a safety stop on 1/3 of my pony tank. I have done this many times. It is properly sized for my diving (60-100ft), not for all diving. My rig fits my needs, not every ones needs.

 

[kanonfodr]

1) The point of the button gauge is to check before each dive that the pony is full. Also to check after each dive that I have not lost any air or after a drill to see how much air I used. It is not optimal, stage rigging would be closest to optimal I agree, but frankly it is a PITA if you have a camera in hand.

<snip>

Have you tried stage rigging it?? Mine sits pretty well out of my way and while I haven't tried a pony and camera on the same dive, I don't hold my camera much differently than where I put my hands normally when diving and my pony's not in the way.

Peace,
Greg

 

[elan]

Why can't you use the pony as part of the gas plan then its not bad gas management?
Tech divers stage extra backgas all the time.

Then it's called a stage bottle and implies using different gas management techniques. I think the OP was referring to Pony usage as a means of redundant backup source.

 

[elan]

Well last weekend I was diving with my pony and decided to deploy it and breathe from it for a while. I sucked about 500 psi from it, then turned off the valve and restowed it for the remainder of the dive. Worked pretty good, even if I am slow because I keep the valve turned off until I need to use it.

My question is: Is there a preferred practice method with it?? Granted, it's a tool nobody ever wants to use, but like any other tool it requires use under controlled conditions to keep the muscle memory and protocol fresh. I want to see how other divers practice with their pony. I have devised two simple scenarios that would necessitate deployment of the pony and I will explain them below:

1.) Diver begins running low on air and to safely complete the dive, diver deploys and begins breathing from pony while retaining a small reserve in their backgas to inflate BCD/Drysuit and also quickly assist another diver until the situation can be resolved. At that point the dive is over and ascent/exit has begun. Does that sound good?

2.) Diver's buddy runs OOA, diver then deploys pony and gives it to OOA diver if possible. The problem I see with this is as follows: The OOA diver won't want to wait the 5-10 seconds for the donating diver to deploy the reg hose and then turn on the valve from the pony. More likely the donating diver will give the OOA diver his donation reg, switch to his secondary if necessary, and then deploy the pony and give that to the OOA diver. That would allow him to recover his donated regulator and then the two can begin their ascent/exit. Is it worth it to begin air-sharing or just have the OOA diver wait for pony deployment??

I have a practice method devised, but I want to see what other divers do first and see if they have a better method.

Peace,
Greg

I was taught the pony is for you not for your buddy. Once the buddy gives you the OOA signal you donate your primary/octo depending on the style and switch to your pony.

However if for some reason you buddy becomes trapped or entangled to the extend you cannot resolve the situation yourselves you donate him your pony while you are going for the help. This situation mostly applies to ICE diving practices though.

 

[GrumpyOldGuy]

Have you tried stage rigging it?? Mine sits pretty well out of my way and while I haven't tried a pony and camera on the same dive, I don't hold my camera much differently than where I put my hands normally when diving and my pony's not in the way.

Peace,
Greg

I did a while back. It has a lot going for it, probably the only way to work with a large pony. Compact, easy to access, balances fine.

I just could not get past having a big metal tank in front of me. I like to get in close and look at tiny critters on the reef and/or take pictures in macro without damaging the reef. If my style of diving was different or I was not so much of a klutz, I would reconsider.

 

[bkotheimer]

I just could not get past having a big metal tank in front of me. I like to get in close and look at tiny critters on the reef and/or take pictures in macro without damaging the reef. If my style of diving was different or I was not so much of a klutz, I would reconsider.

I'm planning to back-mount a pony for the same reason... my video camera is the only thing I want dangling around in front of me or anywhere near in front of me.

Incidentally in response to the "pony bottles = bad gas management" crowd, as a photo/video guy I have my own rebuttal. I dive with groups of photogs, notoriously bad buddies (myself included), and I occasionally find myself at 70-80' with absolutely nobody around. The consequences of a catastrophic failure at that depth keep me up at night sometimes. A self-contained system that is NOT part of my gas planning, but is simply for bailout, is the most responsible thing to have. I figure 13 cf is a good minimum.

Finally, a slight hijack of this thread (sorry) but entirely on-topic....
I'm trying to choose a first stage for this pony setup and need to decide between the Razor and the RG2V ..... any advice?

 

[hudson]

There is this myth going around that making the pony part of your gas-planning is "evil". Quite the opposite, in fact depending on your configuration it is either a must or simply more efficient.

I think it started as a way to quell the notion that you can breathe down your main tank to nothing, then switch to the pony and ascend. That's certainly not the way to do it for reasons obvious, but the answer is not disregarding the gas in your pony either.

If your setup includes a total of 2 second stages, as opposed to 3 (I see no benefit in a rig with 3 seconds, but it's personal preference), then you simply MUST have half your total rock-bottom reserve in the pony. That means your usable gas in the main tank just went up by half your rock-bottom. If you don't use it then you are just ignoring perfectly usable gas on your back.

If you have 3 seconds, then you don't have to do this - however once again you are simply ignoring perfectly usable gas and unnecessarily limiting your bottom time, if you are gas limited.

Yes, I agree it's a bigger problem with newbies to see the pony as an extension of their backgas, but I don't think we have to go to the opposite extreme and tell them to ignore the pony in their gas plan. That's just bad advice. In fact, if you carry this idea to its logical conclusion in an admittedly not-so-common scenario, with a sufficiently large cylinder like an AL40 where you would generally have a lot more gas than half your rock bottom, there is no problem with incorporating that gas into your gas plan as bottom gas either.

 

[Puffer Fish]

There is this myth going around that making the pony part of your gas-planning is "evil". Quite the opposite, in fact depending on your configuration it is either a must or simply more efficient.

I think it started as a way to quell the notion that you can breathe down your main tank to nothing, then switch to the pony and ascend. That's certainly not the way to do it for reasons obvious, but the answer is not disregarding the gas in your pony either.

If your setup includes a total of 2 second stages, as opposed to 3 (I see no benefit in a rig with 3 seconds, but it's personal preference), then you simply MUST have half your total rock-bottom reserve in the pony. That means your usable gas in the main tank just went up by half your rock-bottom. If you don't use it then you are just ignoring perfectly usable gas on your back.

If you have 3 seconds, then you don't have to do this - however once again you are simply ignoring perfectly usable gas and unnecessarily limiting your bottom time, if you are gas limited.

Yes, I agree it's a bigger problem with newbies to see the pony as an extension of their backgas, but I don't think we have to go to the opposite extreme and tell them to ignore the pony in their gas plan. That's just bad advice. In fact, if you carry this idea to its logical conclusion in an admittedly not-so-common scenario, with a sufficiently large cylinder like an AL40 where you would generally have a lot more gas than half your rock bottom, there is no problem with incorporating that gas into your gas plan as bottom gas either.

I carry a pony attached to my main tank and it's a dual purpose tank.. on the bottom, it would be my emergency gas... but as I start my accent, it becomes my deco gas (on none deco dives...). Typically I have it filled with 50% Nitrox.. so would not want to spend a lot of time deep breathing off of it.

It is attached upside down on the right side of my tank, and typically is a 19 cf tank. The regulator is routed up and attached to one of my right side, where one would normally see an octo.

With a 19 cf tank, I can make two dives using it to make roughly 10 minute accents from the 50 ft point.

I maintain enough reserve gas in my primary tank to act as the backup to the pony during that time (as I am almost always no-deco limited, with a lot of extra gas).

Going deeper just and doing deco just involves using a larger pony (30 cf) in the same way, and I typically don't do deco dives with any major time requirement.

While I have not done it, on trimix, I could see using two bottles, with one dedicated as emergency and deep travel, but have not had any place to try it.

Assuming one has a multigas computer, there is a fairly major benefit in doing this.

 

[Tanked]

There is this myth going around that making the pony part of your gas-planning is "evil". Quite the opposite, in fact depending on your configuration it is either a must or simply more efficient.

I think it started as a way to quell the notion that you can breathe down your main tank to nothing, then switch to the pony and ascend. That's certainly not the way to do it for reasons obvious, but the answer is not disregarding the gas in your pony either.

If your setup includes a total of 2 second stages, as opposed to 3 (I see no benefit in a rig with 3 seconds, but it's personal preference), then you simply MUST have half your total rock-bottom reserve in the pony. That means your usable gas in the main tank just went up by half your rock-bottom. If you don't use it then you are just ignoring perfectly usable gas on your back.

If you have 3 seconds, then you don't have to do this - however once again you are simply ignoring perfectly usable gas and unnecessarily limiting your bottom time, if you are gas limited.

Yes, I agree it's a bigger problem with newbies to see the pony as an extension of their backgas, but I don't think we have to go to the opposite extreme and tell them to ignore the pony in their gas plan. That's just bad advice. In fact, if you carry this idea to its logical conclusion in an admittedly not-so-common scenario, with a sufficiently large cylinder like an AL40 where you would generally have a lot more gas than half your rock bottom, there is no problem with incorporating that gas into your gas plan as bottom gas either.

Sorry dude, i have to disagree.
A pony bottle is there for emergencys only. The only gas you should PLAN on using is the gas in you main tank.