Bahamas: Missing Female Diver

[Epinephelus]

This is an interesting thread.
I find the folks who are convinced they can bring someone up who doesn't want to come up particularly interesting.
Getting to a panic-stricken diver's tank/valve to drag them up is one thing; getting to the tank/valve of someone who doesn't want you to is another matter entirely. Suppose they get to your tank/valve first?
I've never tried it, but it seems to me - and I'm in my 60's - that if I see you coming, and I want to keep you away from my backside then I could probably do it. Indeed, if my intention were to not be dragged up, I can think of some ways to do some unexpected things (after all, a DM doesn't approach a diver to help with the idea they're going to be hostile, do they?) that'd give you second thoughts about even approaching me after the initial encounter.
No, I can't fault the DM for not "whipping" that "old lady" in an underwater fight and dragging her to the surface against her will - if that's the case.
E

 

[ScubaSteve]

What about the Husband? We've seemed to have forgotten he was on the dive & boat. What was his demeanor...distraught, devastated or cool as a cucumber? Did he dive the second dive? I've kept up with this thread and I have not seen much comment on this. If anyone has first or second hand knowledge please chime in.

It has been stated that he stayed with the search boats and did not do another dive. I would have called him Gabe Watson if he had.

As for the who "has the bigger Johnson" (hypothetically of course)....I only hope that they can take their differences elsewhere because they are only taking away from the thread at this point. Your statements were made 20 pages ago and on every page since. Drop it and move on. I respect the vast knowledge and experience that you all possess however when it is displayed in what can only be described as "childish bickering", then all that knowledge accounts for nothing. Agree to disagree and move on.

 

[mrlipis]

2.) Experience / Training: The DM is Rescue trained. She was taught how to do this. I'm a very big guy, but if a small female got behind me, got a grip on my tank valve and clamped her knees on my tank, then inflated her BC.... we are going up. Not much I could do about it except cuss a lot

I find the folks who are convinced they can bring someone up who doesn't want to come up particularly interesting.
Getting to a panic-stricken diver's tank/valve to drag them up is one thing; getting to the tank/valve of someone who doesn't want you to is another matter entirely. Suppose they get to your tank/valve first?
I've never tried it, but it seems to me - and I'm in my 60's - that if I see you coming, and I want to keep you away from my backside then I could probably do it. Indeed, if my intention were to not be dragged up, I can think of some ways to do some unexpected things (after all, a DM doesn't approach a diver to help with the idea they're going to be hostile, do they?) that'd give you second thoughts about even approaching me after the initial encounter.

Epinephelus has beaten me to the punch. I agree with him. If I know you are trying to get behind me, it ain't going to happen. Nobody is quick underwater. A panicked diver on the surface won't go underwater with you and it is much easier for the rescuer to go under and come up from behind.. checkmate. In this case maybe had the DM just dropped down on top of her and grabbed the tank valve and taken control, we would have had a different outcome, however it appears she made contact first and encountered resistance. I don't think we know how persistent the DM was but at some point she may have needed to consider her safety first.

We are taught to approach a diver underwater and get their attention first and check for responsiveness. At no time during my rescue or DM training (right or wrong) did we do scenarios with a combative victim underwater. On the surface, yes.

 

[Web Monkey]

Epinephelus has beaten me to the punch. I agree with him. If I know you are trying to get behind me, it ain't going to happen. Nobody is quick underwater.

While fascinating, it's also completely irreverent.

The victim wasn't Jet Li, she was an elderly woman.

And considering that she felt it necessary to hire a DM for a buddy, it's also unlikely that she had any significant underwater self-defense or rescue skills. I don't think "pushing the DM away" counts as any sort of significant threat.

Terry

 

[reefrat]

Don't know if it's really relevant but here is a link to a video about two male divers (buddies) who died at the Blue Hole Dahab.
Apparently one got into difficulty at depth and the other tried to help- they both ended up dead still holding onto each other.
Point is that it may not be that simple to rescue a disoriented negative diver at depth and if the rescue diver tries but for various reasons fears for their own safety then the old tec divers adage applies "better thee than me"- let them go!!
Easier said than done of course if you have an emotional tie to the diver heading down the wall!

YouTube - Fatal Diver's Accident in Blue Hole, Dahab episode 3

Incidentally, I have dropped down to 45m at looked through this "arch" at Dahab many years ago- quite spooky, especially when you think about all the plaques on the rock face way up above. But also the swim through looks deceptively easy- especially when youre narked- and I have no quarms about admitting that I'm narked anywhere below 35m!

 

[jkaterenchuk]

Don't know if it's really relevant but here is a link to a video about two male divers (buddies) who died at the Blue Hole Dahab.
Apparently one got into difficulty at depth and the other tried to help- they both ended up dead still holding onto each other.
Point is that it may not be that simple to rescue a disoriented negative diver at depth and if the rescue diver tries but for various reasons fears for their own safety then the old tec divers adage applies "better thee than me"- let them go!!
Easier said than done of course if you have an emotional tie to the diver heading down the wall!

Its absolutely relevant. It a perfect example that a successful rescue with a concious diver is not as simple as your practise in a class or imagine in your mind or over the internet.

As another example consider the incident that has recently happened in Thailand (one month ago). A very experienced instuctor has a panic situation with a diver. End result is the divers body was found lodged under a rock at almost 50M and the Instructors body has not yet been found.

John

 

[mrlipis]

And considering that she felt it necessary to hire a DM for a buddy, it's also unlikely that she had any significant underwater self-defense or rescue skills. I don't think "pushing the DM away" counts as any sort of significant threat.

It has not been established that she hired the DM. The dive op may have required her to have a personal DM. While I am not saying that is the case, there seems to be some confusion as to why, at the last moment, the boat had to wait while this DM joined the group.
Furthermore, a 67 year old woman could easily rip your mask off or pull you reg out of your mouth so I think that is a bad argument. Any resistance creates a risk and a potentially dangerous situation. Adrenaline is a very potent substance.

 

[ItsBruce]

How did we get to the point of debating a diver who is trying to kill himself or herself or is fighting to avoid being rescued? My recollection of the thread is that the deceased pushed the DM away at about 100 fsw. To me, that's a lot different from fighting away a rescue. Couldn't it have been a part of a panic or of being narced or both?

And, as far as performing a rescue, especially on a panicked diver, being narced could have impaired the DM's performance and/or cognitive skills and thus prevented her from rescuing the diver.

 

[fisheyeview]

How did we get to the point of debating a diver who is trying to kill himself or herself or is fighting to avoid being rescued? My recollection of the thread is that the deceased pushed the DM away at about 100 fsw. To me, that's a lot different from fighting away a rescue. Couldn't it have been a part of a panic or of being narced or both?

And, as far as performing a rescue, especially on a panicked diver, being narced could have impaired the DM's performance and/or cognitive skills and thus prevented her from rescuing the diver.

There have been further posts on the incident. I don't know if you have seen them. Danthe Engineer has spoken to several people from SC about the incident, and has given some further information as it was relayed to him.

 

[Web Monkey]

Furthermore, a 67 year old woman could easily rip your mask off or pull you reg out of your mouth so I think that is a bad argument.

Although I'm unwilling to die trying to rescue someone, the above actions are not significantly threatening. A mask is nice, but not required and I won't immediately die if someone pulls the reg out of my mouth. I have a spare, and sometimes two.

At some point the rescuer can decide there's a significant risk of personal injury or death and abandon the effort, however there was no evidence of any sort of resistance here except mention of "pushing away"

Terry