Bahamas: Missing Female Diver

[stevejaz]

We may never know what happened in this particular incident but perhaps another thread on what you should do with someone hell bent on intentional self harm under water might be interesting. It might throw up some interesting questions as to the contract between the diver and the DM. Is the contract (currently notionary in my head) that the DM will do what they can to assist in the event of an emergency? Would that preclude an intentional emergency? Should you place yourself at risk in this scenario?

I'd be keen to hear in more detail exactly the type of aggressive behaviours she displayed. It does all seem to point to either suicide or some kind of severe cerebral impairment likely as a result of the recent alleged stroke.

Since we are clearly speaking in the hypothetical and it may or may not relate to this case...my response...

Personally speaking, much of what I do, type, say, is with the consideration of how I will feel about it after the event or atleast I try to conduct myself in that manner.

Thus, in this case, if someone were trying to self harm, they are clearly in need of help. No different than somebody standing on the edge of a bridge, am I just going to drive by? I think not as I doubt most of you would. Once the jumper has made the leap, I'm certainly not going to follow as there's nothing more I can do. It's a bit different in this case because that point of no return varies for all of us due to experience, training, and personal liability and by that I mean the amount of anguish one would feel after the event, not fear of a lawsuit. However, this DM according to the facts we have now, did try to intercept, notified another instructor, and presumably kept up the intervention until they felt they had reached the "point of no return". Conduct of the DM prior to that critical juncture is up for debate but again there are still many questions unanswered.

Just my .02

 

[InTheDrink]

Thanks Thal, interesting insights.

I take your point that the solution irrespective of diver mental aspect is the same (grab them by their valve and head on up).

 

[InTheDrink]

Since we are clearly speaking in the hypothetical and it may or may not relate to this case...my response...

Personally speaking, much of what I do, type, say, is with the consideration of how I will feel about it after the event or atleast I try to conduct myself in that manner.

Thus, in this case, if someone were trying to self harm, they are clearly in need of help. No different than somebody standing on the edge of a bridge, am I just going to drive by? I think not as I doubt most of you would. Once the jumper has made the leap, I'm certainly not going to follow as there's nothing more I can do. It's a bit different in this case because that point of no return varies for all of us due to experience, training, and personal liability and by that I mean the amount of anguish one would feel after the event, not fear of a lawsuit. However, this DM according to the facts we have now, did try to intercept, notified another instructor, and presumably kept up the intervention until they felt they had reached the "point of no return". Conduct of the DM prior to that critical juncture is up for debate but again there are still many questions unanswered.

Just my .02

And in this sense I view this case as very different to the Cayman's thread. Maybe this is just my inexperience. But the DM in this case did intervene and we don't know what actual factors prevented that intervention from being successful.

In the Cayman's thread there wasn't any intervention and it had, IMO, negligence written all across it. This one does not smell at all the same to me. But I'm drawing on very limited experience and training - this is just how it comes across to me.

 

[Katamuki]

Thal, again I disagree about the DM failing to perform IF the victim was combative. A DM is to aid and assist in the manner for which they are trained. Included in this training are the understanding that their own life must at all times be protected. While it may be frustrating that the DM appears to be ineffective it is WAY too easy to arm-chair quarter back the situation. We dont know the state of the DMs equipment, mask, fins, air supply, mental state (rapture of stress). Claiming that any DM you trained could have produced a different result is hard to believe. For all you know the victim may have been pulling off the DMs mask and 2nd stage along with poking her fingers in her eyes. I doubt she wrote out harsh words on a slate and this drove the DM away.

My only deep rescue was at 40 meters on an unresponsive diver so I have never had the experience of a fight at depth. I do however have over 800 dives guiding individuals from reef to deep water drift and this scenario we are talking about has made me think long and hard about what I will do to assist someone who may or may NOT want my help. As someone has already said, if I am going down that deep I AM hauling someone's ass back up.

 

[deepstops]

Thal has made up his mind and he's not going to consider any other argument or explanation other than his speculation the DM failed to perform her duty.

To close this thread at this point would NOT be a disservice to the Scubaboard community.

 

[stevejaz]

And in this sense I view this case as very different to the Cayman's thread. Maybe this is just my inexperience. But the DM in this case did intervene and we don't know what actual factors prevented that intervention from being successful.

In the Cayman's thread there wasn't any intervention and it had, IMO, negligence written all across it. This one does not smell at all the same to me. But I'm drawing on very limited experience and training - this is just how it comes across to me.

Actually, I don't know that this thread is (potentially) that much different.

Similarities.... (all possible assumptions of course)

-Inexperienced divers? We know at least one was and the other required a DM

-DM was questionably not in full control (One lost site for up to 10 minutes but was a DG, other let diver seperate themselves by a depth of 20', don't know how far in front, back, right, or left of DM they were and they were definitely this was definitely a DM role)

-Questionable dive site, both ascended to a hard bottom but went in a direction that was condusive to a much deeper dive with inexperienced or questionable divers

-One or possibly both divers had the intention of going deeper than their training

-Both the DM and DG attempted a rescue but only one actually made contact but abandon for unknown reasons

-Both divers may have had similar motives, be it deep dives, or life altering dives..don't know

The above is obviously subjective and do not necessarily reflect my opinion but my attempt to look at them subjectively.

Steve

 

[Thalassamania]

Thal, again I disagree about the DM failing to perform IF the victim was combative. A DM is to aid and assist in the manner for which they are trained. Included in this training are the understanding that their own life must at all times be protected. While it may be frustrating that the DM appears to be ineffective it is WAY too easy to arm-chair quarter back the situation. We dont know the state of the DMs equipment, mask, fins, air supply, mental state (rapture of stress). Claiming that any DM you trained could have produced a different result is hard to believe. For all you know the victim may have been pulling off the DMs mask and 2nd stage along with poking her fingers in her eyes. I doubt she wrote out harsh words on a slate and this drove the DM away.

There a lots of things that we do not know and as they are revealed opinions will shift too. I make no claim as to the ability of DMs I've trained, I have certified one DM in my life and I am unlikely to certify a second. I will say that weakest Instructor I ever trained should have had no problem with the two skills needed here, hold onto the tank valve, use an air siphon to establish and maintain slight positive buoyancy.

My only deep rescue was at 40 meters on an unresponsive diver so I have never had the experience of a fight at depth. I do however have over 800 dives guiding individuals from reef to deep water drift and this scenario we are talking about has made me think long and hard about what I will do to assist someone who may or may NOT want my help. As someone has already said, if I am going down that deep I AM hauling someone's ass back up.

That's the point, haul them back up.

Thal has made up his mind and he's not going to consider any other argument or explanation other than his speculation the DM failed to perform her duty.

A base canard ... give me new data and I always reanalyze. Bottom line (at this point) is just as Katamuki stated: "... if I am going down that deep I AM hauling someone's ass back up." No one was hauled up, end of story.

To close this thread at this point would NOT be a disservice to the Scubaboard community.

While it may not suit your purposes (whatever they are) closing the tread before more data is available will do everyone, including the DM, a disservice in the end.

 

[deepstops]

There a lots of things that we do not know and as they are revealed opinions will shift too.

Your tune shifts.... So you admit many facts are unknown but how many times have you already stated this instructor failed to perform a function "even the weakest instructor you've trained" would be able to perform?

A base canard ... give me new data and I always reanalyze.

There isn't enough information available to analyze what happened. You don't know what transpired down there and neither do I but you've already blamed the instructor how many times?

While it may not suit your purposes (whatever they are) closing the tread before more data is available will do everyone, including the DM, a disservice in the end.

My purposes? I don't have a horse in this race. So what's your purpose? You've already done a disservice to the instructor by placing the blame on her without knowing some rather important facts.

 

[Riger]

With respect, hugs and other joy-joy feelings (added afterward to not look like a dingbat...)

Can you please both shut-up before this thread gets locked.

If you don't agree with a statement or standpoint, agree to disagree (or ignore it) and move on. Come on chaps, this is not fair on the community as a whole.

Thanks in advance, Best Regards
Richard

 

[LeadTurn_SD]

Thal has made up his mind and he's not going to consider any other argument or explanation other than his speculation the DM failed to perform her duty.

To close this thread at this point would NOT be a disservice to the Scubaboard community.

Thal tends to have pretty strong opinions, but (unlike my opinions ) they have a basis in long and broad experience.

And I think you've also formed a strong opinion, based on your own experience and the way you read the incident.

We don't have all the facts. The facts we do have may be incorrect. But if we take what we know at full face value, there are some problems with how the DM apparently handled this dive. She apparently let the victim get away from her. To her credit she did attempt to get the victim back under her supervision, including making direct physical contact with the victim, a confrontation ensued, but then the DM apparently abandoned the victim to her fate.

Could she /should she have done more?

The facts are so sparse that is really all we have to talk about.

Could the DM bring a non-cooperative diver up from deep water? I think she should have been able to. Here is why:

1.) Weight carried: We are talking about the tropics, so hopefully the diver isn't carrying 30 lbs of lead. The DM should have been able to get positive enough to get the victim moving upwards.

2.) Experience / Training: The DM is Rescue trained. She was taught how to do this. I'm a very big guy, but if a small female got behind me, got a grip on my tank valve and clamped her knees on my tank, then inflated her BC.... we are going up. Not much I could do about it except cuss a lot

So yes, based on 1 & 2 I'd say a half-way fit & competent DM could swim a middle-aged, combative, possible post-stroke female victim up.

As a point of reference, even with my limited experience I have done something slightly similar. In the 70's, I brought a narc'ed diver up from depth (a bit over 90 feet when I saw him)... with fin power only. This was in the pre-BC days, neither of us had BC's on. I had about 12 lbs of weight, plus the weight of my steel 72. He had maybe 6lbs of weight, and a steel 72. He wasn't fighting me, but was not really assisting either. I swam him up into shallower water, then he was fine and back in control. It was hard, but can be done.

With a BC, it would have been much easier.

I can understand the DM's initial confusion at having a combative diver push the DM away when the DM was only trying to assist, and can see that in her confusion the DM may have hesitated to intervene more forcefully to stop the victim from descending. And I'm sure the DM is very torn up about it and will ask herself "what-if's" for a long time... but there were some mistakes made here.

Best wishes.