Is safe second really needed?

[Nemrod]

Cowboy, like taking an acronym proclaiming that only we are doing it right? I dunno, seems like the pool is getting full of brown stuff, Thal, let's head offshore.

I haven't had to save any strangers yet, well, lately anyways, but if I do they will have to make do with what I got or don't got, sorry. I be glad to give it to them though.

N, you are doing it wrong!

 

[Nemrod]

I can agree with that 100%. I am concerned for other divers, not the OP and his buddy. Rightly or not, other divers will have expectations about their gear--and then there is the skill issue. "Do it better" is not a contingency plan.

If they are off on their own, good for them. With anyone else sharing the site, it's reckless. We all have a responsibility to be a good buddy to anyone who needs us.

Your concern for others is to be applauded but your argument is without merit. Should free divers be required to carry a scuba tank around complete wih an octopus on a long hose just in case some stranger scuba diver happens upon him OOA? Now we are not only equipment dependent but stranger's equipment dependent, that is getting out in the Martian orbit to expect everybody to be equipped in some sort of conforming scuba uniform .

Nobody ever promised you a rose garden, if PadI did then they mislead you. I am not trying to be mean, it is just unrealistic to expect what you proposed. I will be glad to share my air but you will get it buddy breathing more than likely.

You have a good point, if you are diving with a group of people your equipment should meet their norm or at the very least they should understand how you differ. Thank you for that.

N

 

[Matt S.]

C'mon. Your argument that making a small effort to conform to widely recognized safety protocols is just like a free diver carrying a scuba tank is the ridiculous one.

Refuse to take that small step if you like, there are no scuba police to ticket you for not carrying another second stage. But you'll be earning the dirty looks you get on the dive boat, in my opinion.

 

[pittyyofool]

Pitty, in some cases, possibly this case, I would wander off on purpose, in fact, I would wander off to a different ocean.

After this I might start swimming towards your ocean.

At a incidence of 48.6 degrees light is reflected back into the water (or atmosphere) which is why we have the ring, I don't know, I just like the way it looks, like an Alice and Wonderland mirror to another dimension. Once the sun drops below the equivalent angle it is only the diffuse light, scattered light, of the atmosphere that lights our underwater world.

sounds like someone did there homework, angel of incidence is equal to the angel of reflection which is __?__ of refraction.

What I see is a cowboy attitude, and someone who walked into the bar looking for a fight.

Only of he will not give my air back.

However, I don't think that should be construed to mean that developing an unstoppable sub-aqua face punch and reg grab technique is superior to simply donating a reg that a frightened, unskilled diver can hang on to.

I never said it was superior, just an alternative. My buddy (Matt) and I practiced it yesterday. IT WORKS he darn near bloodied my nose when I would not give his reg back. (it is less of a punch and more of a a hefty palm to the mask with a prying action on the reg to pull it out of the receivers jaws) If both parties buddy breath properly and trade back and forth like they are suppose to, it will not resort to this.

Well, the required gear for every dive is a tank of air and a way to get it out (a valve).
So people who dive with harnesses, regulators, masks and fins are 'gear haulers'?

How did you know that is how I learned to dive. When my friend Brent and I were about 8 we stole one of his dads air tanks and took it to the bottom of his pool and took turns turning the valve and inhaling from the jet of air until it ran dry(empty). Needles to say pops was not to happy that we got water in a steel tank...

I dunno, seems like the pool is getting full of brown stuff, Thal, let's head offshore.

Can I meet you guys out there?

 

[Matt S.]

"it is less of a punch and more of a a hefty palm to the mask with a prying action on the reg to pull it out of the receivers jaws"

My time in this thread has now been richly rewarded.

 

[LeadTurn_SD]

So here is the true question can anyone give me a valid reason why I should carry a "octo" on open water dives? And further more a situation where buddy breathing would not work, but an "octo" would. Please justify your reasoning and back it up with a story if possible. Or if you agree, leave a "Hell Yeah"...

"Hell.... Maybe???"

pittyyofool: For your original question, the obvious answer (for me) is NO. An octo is not really needed. The vast majority of my dives have been made without them... because the vast majority of my dives were almost 30 years ago. I was trained in buddy breathing, so were all of my buddies. If that is the case with you and your buddies, have at it.

But (and like my butt, it has become a really BIG but ): Octos are better. I know how to buddy breath, my main dive partner (my wife) also was trained how to buddy breath, but we both have octos anyway. I feel it is a more efficient and safer way to share air. Having to rig an octo (in my case a bungied 2nd and 5' long hose primary) seems like a small compromise to make.

I'd really prefer not to have the extra 2nd stage, but haul it along under my chin "just in case".

Have fun, octo or octo-less, it is really you and your buddy's decision. I just feel like I'd be be best able to assist an OOA diver (ESPECIALLY A FRESHLY MINTED ONE) with an octo.

Best wishes.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Is it not notice or not care? Some people are fine diving by the "same day same ocean, I have a buddy somewhere" rule. Solo diving can be fun, but it should be in the plan not to reconvene after separation.

In which case you DON'T have a buddy at all ... but as long as you're both in agreement with this approach I don't see a problem with it. It's when one diver decides unilaterally to make it the plan without telling the other that the problems begin.

In the past few years we've had at least two diver deaths and one significant change to dive park rules because someone decided to take this approach and things didn't go just exactly right ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

You have a good point, if you are diving with a group of people your equipment should meet their norm or at the very least they should understand how you differ. Thank you for that.

N

Refuse to take that small step if you like, there are no scuba police to ticket you for not carrying another second stage. But you'll be earning the dirty looks you get on the dive boat, in my opinion.

Not necessarily so.

When you're sharing a dive boat with people who are not your dive buddy, your only obligation is to let them know what your plan is ... and to respect the boat rules. If you are diving within those constraints, then going solo, diving minimalist, or however you choose to dive is really nobody's concern but your own.

The only thing you owe to the other people on the boat is to let them know what to expect of you in the event of an emergency. There is no requirement to stick to anybody else's idea of "normal".

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Nemrod]

C'mon. Your argument that making a small effort to conform to widely recognized safety protocols is just like a free diver carrying a scuba tank is the ridiculous one.

Refuse to take that small step if you like, there are no scuba police to ticket you for not carrying another second stage. But you'll be earning the dirty looks you get on the dive boat, in my opinion.

Oh, now we must "conform" and somehow I thought we had a free will and lived in a free country.

Maybe when I "free" dive I will carry a Spare Air for you guys who have two of everything and the kitchen sink and still think that strangers diving nearby should be your pack mule for extra air.

I think the situation is here that you are not actually reading the posts like the one Thal provided where he talked about diving from one's own boat, diving were there were no other people. Wake up there fellow, not everybody dives from cattle boats. I would as soon shoot a staple gun in my forehead as get on a cattle boat with you given your inflexibility.

You can give me dirty looks 'till Hades freezes over, your needs are not my needs or concern. I am not in the scuba club, I go my own way.

Seriously, I realize you are just wanting to be a safe diver, good attitude, thank you for your serious desire to be a safe diver and concerned for others, not enough of that in the world today.

N

 

[Peter Guy]

Captain wrote

Those that did not train in the era before the octo and BC have no way of judging what is or is not being taught today versus what was taught in the past. Many have said, and I tend to agree that OW and AOW today is less than equal to the one and only certification (Scuba Diver)available then.

Well Captain, I think I qualify as one who IS able to judge by this standard -- at least how today's training compares to what I had 40+ years ago.

Disclaimer -- I have a very small database from which to comment -- I only took one Scuba class 43 years ago at my University. I heard about my dad's NAUI class. I only have been involved with a few classes the past 4 years -- PADI, NAUI, UTD, GUE, TDI and only a few instructors. I am NOT the expert that Thal is for example. This is just from my personal experience.

What was "better" 40 years ago -- "Watermanship" training -- especially the time spent on learning "The Art of Skin...Diving" which was used as a precursor to "The Art of...Scuba Diving." As a result of spending 4 weeks (as I recall) working on our skin diving skills, the mask skills that cause so much trouble with new divers was bypassed.

I honestly don't remember much, if anything, being "taught" about "buoyancy control" but since we had nothing to control our buoyancy except our lungs there probably wasn't all that much to be taught. In the pool you were more-or-less neutral anyway so it wasn't a big deal -- swim down, swim up -- don't hold your breath on the way up.

I definitely wasn't taught anything about "protecting the environment" while diving -- to the contrary, picking coral, collecting shells, grabbing turtles was part of what we did.

And I really could go on.

This is NOT to say that the current OW/AOW classes wouldn't create more competent divers if the instructors actually took the time to establish "mastery" of the basic skills in addition to really working on trim and buoyancy. But, at least in my experience, there is a lot more to learn to be a competent diver today than there was 40 years ago.

I can't help but think that some people may be looking at "The Golden Age" through some foggy lenses.