Instructors - what is acceptable for a verified dive log?

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Why would anybody fake dive logs? They are only cheating themselves.

Not really. They do it to get on a dive they want to do without putting the extra time and money into the training required to do it. So they are trying to get a benefit out of it.

 

[ahava]

I will start by announcing I am not an instructor, and I have a twist to this discussion:

I know of a dive shop that tells Divemaster candidates and even instructor candidates to falsify their log books to make sure they at least have the prerequisite number of dives on paper. I know many students who have complied and only a few that refused. The point the dive shop in question makes is that they know these students and know they are good divers despite the lack of logged dives.

I don't care how good of a diver these people are, If they don't want to play by the rules from the very begining then they don't belong in this business. I surely wouldn't trust them to certify or asssist in training someone in my family if they have this kind of lapse in their own personal ethics.

 

[ClayJar]

I know of a dive shop that tells Divemaster candidates and even instructor candidates to falsify their log books to make sure they at least have the prerequisite number of dives on paper. I know many students who have complied and only a few that refused. The point the dive shop in question makes is that they know these students and know they are good divers despite the lack of logged dives.

According to the S&Ps of one of the associations with which I am at least passingly familiar, any AI/DM/Instructor who has first-hand knowledge of a violation of standards such as that is actually *obligated* to report it. (I would not necessarily consider it unethical to recommend that a supremely capable diver spend a long weekend at the springs to get their dive count up to the requirement -- doing the dives by the book would put them within the letter of the standards, and being highly qualified would put them within the spirit of the standards. To advise a student to falsify log entries, on the other hand, crosses a line. Perhaps that's just my diplomacy hat.)

However, if the student demonstrates the proper skills and ability throughout the course, are they less qualified than someone who has the minimum number of logged dives but lacks skills?

By the time I began my DM course, there were some things at which I was noticeably more qualified than some who are certified (and of course, *many* things for me to learn!). There would be no question that I was capable of carrying out those tasks with which I was eminently familiar with aplomb and grace. Even with that being the case, by the standards the instructors have agreed to uphold, it did not just matter how skilled I was, there were simply some things I was not yet allowed to do. If you're operating under the auspices of an agency, you *must* uphold the standards and policies of that agency. (If you don't like the standards and policies, definitely work to change them, but while they exist, observe them... unless it's a moral issue, known safety issues or the like.)

(As for showing up to a course unqualified to participate or to achieve certification due to lack of skills, I've seen that plenty of times. That there are people who may need more dives, training, practice, or experience in no way invalidates the standards, and it would be untenable to use poor divers as a justification for violating standards and policies for the "good" divers.)

 

[BarryNL]

Why would anybody fake dive logs? They are only cheating themselves.

Plus sometimes experience can be hit or miss. Depending on individual divers. For example I took a group out last year to the V.I.'s and had a dive couple join us for a day of diving. Their credentials and lists of past dives was pretty impressive. So I thought they were good experienced divers. So to the site and off the boat we go. The wife was the first one to bounce off the sandy bottom mucking up the viz and started walking on her fins in a vertical position while trying to use her arms and hands to propel her through the water. My group assumed she was a sponge diver or a decendent of the creature from the black lagoon. At least it gave me a great example to show my class on how not to dive.:fruit:

Heh, some people never seem to learn no matter how much experience they get. I dived in Greece last year with an insta-buddy who was a dive instructor - I figured that should be OK. Within 2 minutes of hitting the water his tank fell out of his BCD (yes, he had set it up himself) and it took two people to sort it out. He then proceeded to bounce his way off the bottom around the dive site flapping his arms like a windmill. Also, every time he wanted to stop and look at something he had to go into a fin-pivot on the bottom. Basically, a log book or a c-card tells you nothing about a diver's skills - only seeing them in the water is good enough.

(This is also a good reason not to work your way up to dive-pro until you have the skills to carry it off. People laugh much harder at bungling pros).

 

[fisherdvm]

Heh, some people never seem to learn no matter how much experience they get. I dived in Greece last year with an insta-buddy who was a dive instructor - I figured that should be OK.

He must have been a NAUI instructor. PADI holds much higher standards.

Within 2 minutes of hitting the water his tank fell out of his BCD (yes, he had set it up himself) and it took two people to sort it out. He then proceeded to bounce his way off the bottom around the dive site flapping his arms like a windmill.

The reason why the tank fell off, is because he wants to create a situation where he can train others in important buddy skills. You should bounce on the bottom with your arms flapping to scare away stingrays, electric eels, and scorpion fish.

Also, every time he wanted to stop and look at something he had to go into a fin-pivot on the bottom. Basically, a log book or a c-card tells you nothing about a diver's skills - only seeing them in the water is good enough.

(This is also a good reason not to work your way up to dive-pro until you have the skills to carry it off. People laugh much harder at bungling pros).

Staying close to the bottom prevent shark attacks. The fin-pivot is an important skill to demonstrate to students on how to control buoyancy. I think you forget that he has students following him.

 

[fisherdvm]

I have an idea for a device that you mount on the side of a dock, swimming pool, or bridge. It automatically lowers your dive computer at a safe descent speed into the water, complete a square profile dive, and slowly ascend. You can set the surface interval, and depth of subsequent dives, and it repeats again.... Until you can get your 100 dives you needed for your instructor status. (by the way, do you know there is an exception so you can sit for the IE after only 60 dives?

 

[String]

Also, every time he wanted to stop and look at something he had to go into a fin-pivot on the bottom. Basically, a log book or a c-card tells you nothing about a diver's skills - only seeing them in the water is good enough.

The most unbelievable thing about that post is you claim you saw something worth stopping to look at in GREECE ?!

 

[Divin'Papaw]

He must have been a NAUI instructor. PADI holds much higher standards.

Cheap.

I've had PADI instructors who are absolutely awesome divers. I've also had lousy ones ... one VERY lousy one as a matter of fact. But the majority of the PADI instructors I've met and dove with have been outstanding divers. I have no doubt the same applies to NAUI, SDI or SSI ... there are excellent instructors and some not so much. You have to do your homework regardless of the agency before you select an instructor.

 

[fisherdvm]

Cheap.

I've had PADI instructors who are absolutely awesome divers. I've also had lousy ones ... one VERY lousy one as a matter of fact. But the majority of the PADI instructors I've met and dove with have been outstanding divers. I have no doubt the same applies to NAUI, SDI or SSI ... there are excellent instructors and some not so much. You have to do your homework regardless of the agency before you select an instructor.

AWWWW... can't you take a joke? PADI's got such a beating from this board, I just wanted to lighten up a bit.

Awright, I'll change it.

"Must have been an PADI instructor, cuz SSI hold much higher standards."

Happy now??

 

[Azza]

I haven't checked a log book for around 3 years...then again I haven't taught a course that requires a minimum amount of dives for that long either.

Interviewing a diver (in a casual chatty kind of way) will reveal far more about them than any log book will tell you

I heard of an instructor who didn't have the requisite dives to certify and racked up the dives on his computer by doing :15 down, :10 up at the end of a boat ramp, in <20' till his computer registered th requisite number of dives.

This used to happen all the time here.
A guy I did a few courses with had only 75 dives a week before his IDC so the shop told him to go tea bagging in a local lake for 3 days until he had them. Funny thing was both him and I started diving at the same time but he never wanted to go diving. When he was at 75 dives I already had 135 with no inclination to do my IDC and couldn't understand why he was bothering with it...He doesn't even teach anymore...