Ultrasonic Cleaning: suitable containers

[wdeutsch]

So have a look in here, find a formula for your doings, or make your own formula
Pull out the SDS for the ingredients, and buy them and mix them and be pleased
with your achievement at being able to sonicise all sorts of things, for your family

https://www.upcorp.com/assets/files/SDS - SonicPower Degreaser.pdf

And

Now who on earth has the desire to whisper around in direct messages witholding knowledge from the people

I tried to look for your special recipe, but failed. Read the SDS and have no idea where to get their specific ingredients (and I'm a chemist too! Maybe a bad one?). When you have a spare minute, care to share your specific formulation? Looks like it's good stuff!

@elmo and @greeniguana : Thanks for those ideas too. I happen to have both lying around and will play with them as well. I know how well they work in their 'proper' application, but hadn't thought to apply them here.

 

[Mobulai]

I’m not so sure of how compatible the Alconox is for o2 cleaning
From the little I could find on their info sheets it seems to have some organic carbon in there
If someone cam clarify what is Benzensulphonic acid is amd its advantage also would be great

Laundry powder has proven very effective in de gunking when I tried it

 

[greeniguana]

I’m not so sure of how compatible the Alconox is for o2 cleaning
From the little I could find on their info sheets it seems to have some organic carbon in there
If someone cam clarify what is Benzensulphonic acid is amd its advantage also would be great
View attachment 909201
View attachment 909200

Laundry powder has proven very effective in de gunking when I tried it

I don't use Alconox for O2 cleaning. I use Bluegold for that.

 

[Mobulai]

injector nozzles on cars mate, no use thinner and alcohol on regs

Wait what no, I meant the 1st stage part of the reg; but I guess if It works for a 1500+ bar part it works for a 200bar one

 

[RyanT]

@Tanks A Lot, my research is in bioacoustics. There are some additional complicating factors (if you want to dive deep), but you pretty much nailed it, nicely done! In addition to impedence, the overall mass of an object and hence its resonance frequency will influence sound wave propagation between materials.

All materials have a resonance frequency (the frequency at which the material best absorbs the energy and hence vibrates with the greatest amplitude). This is why your calculations use density per unit area. You can do a simple calculation based on density, but the overall size of the object and surface area is going to have an influence on resonance frequency as well. At the end of the day though, the bigger the difference in resonance frequency between the materials, the greater the impedance mismatch. As your calculations demonstrate, glass has a much greater impedance mismatch with water than do thin plastics. So yeah, glass is not a good container.

The frequency of the sound waves also play a big role in acoustic transmission (still related to impedance and resonance). High frequency waves (e.g. ultrasonic) are attenuated much more easily by objects than lower frequency waves. This is why you hear the bass from outside a car with a loud stereo, but not the higher frequencies. In essence, the higher the frequencies, the more important it becomes to find materials that don't have such a large impedance mismatch with water.

 

[wdeutsch]

If someone cam clarify what is Benzensulphonic acid is amd its advantage also would be great



Laundry powder has proven very effective in de gunking when I tried it

Benzenesulfonic acid esters are *definitely* carbon containing. See structure below, if that makes any sense to you. The C10-16 part of the chemical name says the carbon tail (the zigzag bit) is 2-3x as long as what I've shown below. Basically, every angle point there is a CH2 group. So, lots of carbon to burn.

As to what it's advantage is, from a cleaning perspective: Most soaps/detergents work by having both polar/charged parts and nonpolar/greasy parts. So, they form clusters in water that have their polar parts facing out into the water (to keep them soluble), but then they have a protected 'glob' of non-polar area. That allows greasy things to slide into that area and be removed from your object and from the bulk water-based solution. Then, when you rinse, away they go! In the benzenesulfonic acid, the SO3 part of it is the chaged/polar bit and the 'tail' with the Me at the end is what forms the nonpolar 'glob' to trap your grease. The SO3 may also bind metal ions that are a part of corrosion and help break that up. Less sure there. That's called 'chelation'. I don't know of any non-carbon containing chelators, but they may exist? Perhaps there's one on the BlueGold SDS?

 

[broncobowsher]

Take me back to chemistry classes from 30-35 years ago.

 

[Mobulai]

Benzenesulfonic acid esters are *definitely* carbon containing. See structure below, if that makes any sense to you. The C10-16 part of the chemical name says the carbon tail (the zigzag bit) is 2-3x as long as what I've shown below. Basically, every angle point there is a CH2 group. So, lots of carbon to burn.

As to what it's advantage is, from a cleaning perspective: Most soaps/detergents work by having both polar/charged parts and nonpolar/greasy parts. So, they form clusters in water that have their polar parts facing out into the water (to keep them soluble), but then they have a protected 'glob' of non-polar area. That allows greasy things to slide into that area and be removed from your object and from the bulk water-based solution. Then, when you rinse, away they go! In the benzenesulfonic acid, the SO3 part of it is the chaged/polar bit and the 'tail' with the Me at the end is what forms the nonpolar 'glob' to trap your grease. The SO3 may also bind metal ions that are a part of corrosion and help break that up. Less sure there. That's called 'chelation'. I don't know of any non-carbon containing chelators, but they may exist? Perhaps there's one on the BlueGold SDS?

View attachment 909212

My knowledge goes as far as „the ring thing“ = benz-
But I appreciate the education

 

[Tanks A Lot]

[...]my research is in bioacoustics.[...]

Ah, that is someone I would very much like to pester about the subject! Maybe you can help clear up this thought about the thickness of the material:

• If the material's thickness is an exact multiple of the sound wavelength, or half of it, then the sound waves should propagate very efficiently. This would be related to resonance. Is that correct? I realise this isn't very useful for us, but still an interesting thought.
• The thicker the material, the greater the damping (attenuation). But does this really matter at the thicknesses we're dealing with here? When I did some napkin maths, it seemed to me that the impedance mismatch vastly overshadows any differences that would result from slightly thicker walls.

I appreciate someone with real knowledge jumping into the subject and correcting me.

 

[RyanT]

Full disclosure: my knowledge of the physics side of sound is only a fraction of what @Angelo Farina could have told us. Yes, the thickness of the material relative to the wave frequency can definitely influence propagation. But you are correct, the impedance mismatch will matter much more at the thickness differences we are dealing with here. I'm sure that a thin plastic sandwich bag will transmit the waves better than a yogurt cup, however, the real world difference will probably be negligible. To me, the ease of use of a yogurt cup would probably outweigh any small sonic efficiency that might be seen with a plastic bag.

There is another potential issue that is also unlikely to have an influence on the outcome of cleaning. That is the production of constructive or destructive interference. As sound waves travel across a medium (e.g. water to yogurt container wall), some of that wave energy will be reflected from the opposite side of the container instead of traveling through it. Those waves will then bounce back into the oncoming waves inside the container. If the wave peaks collide, they will amplify and make the wave stronger. If the wave peaks are out of phase, they will cancel each other. This can be modeled using the impedance mismatch, wavelengths, and container size and shape. For our purposes here though, this isn't something that would keep me up at night!