Info Are Pony Bottles Dangerous?

[SlugLife]

I know a lady that had her relatively new 1st stage literally explode, splitting in half as she was geared up and waiting to splash.

That can happen right a few ways, but one cause is over-torqueing a regulator as part of servicing (done by your local dive shop, support your LDS everyone!). Predictably, the dive industry insists nobody service their own gear, and such a thing would be near impossible to detect even if you did take apart the regulator after servicing.

Only diving with a team that one knows well and practices with would greatly limit when and where most people would be able to dive. How would one start diving with this team if one doesn’t know them well and has never dived with them?

Classic chicken-and-egg problem.

Congratulations on passing Open Water, welcome to the dive community! Oh, you want to dive with a buddy? Sorry, but you lack the experience and discipline, I can't dive with you. How do you get good enough to dive with me? Find a reliable dive team, that only accepts proven experienced divers and... Nobody wants you? I guess solo dive for a while, and don't bring a pony bottle, get-good instead.

 

[mr_v]

Examining cause is important, but I was focused on solutions:


For example, lets say an entanglement occurs. The "cause" would typically be considered "entanglement," not OOA. However, if the diver also had a 19cu with them, they would have had enough air to solve the entanglement and surface. If a diver gets spooked, panics, and rockets to the surface, that would not be considered OOA. However, that same diver may not have panicked or taken a more measured approach if they knew they also had an extra 19cu emergency-supply with them. What about lost mask, dove too deep, got lost in a wreck, or .... many other "causes?" Setting aside medical issues, the addition of a pony bottle at least increases the fighting-chance a diver has.

Back to the "entanglement" example, I might also suggest a better (or even redundant) cutting device. Though even that has limits, for example, I sometimes come across thick steel cable underwater, which even 12-inch tin-snips wouldn't cut through. However, the "pony bottle mindset" often leads to divers considering better or redundant cutting devices, or various other solutions to dive-safety issues.

If a diver dies of a heart-attack underwater, sure the pony won't help them, but neither will gas-planning, skills, or anything else you talked about. Staying focused on the things a diver can control, redundant air is a fantastic, quick, and effective way of increasing safety (when used properly). And sure, people should also focus on skills, safety precautions, dive planning, etc as well.

It is a slow day in Mr V's land, so I'll bite.

Dealing with entanglement is a skill. Instead of saying "I need extra air in case there is an entanglement" say "I need to figure out how to avoid being entangled."

First, you should avoid any entanglement by not diving beyond your skill level, e.g., do not dive wrecks/caves unless you're certified. However, it is still possible to come across a fishing line or something else. In that case, it is up to you. You can choose not to go where there entanglement is possible.

Second, if you must cross a line, do it over the line and not under it. If you get entangled, you should make one attempt to free yourself and then signal your buddy. A diver is more likely to make entanglement worse if the diver continues fight the entanglement. Cave and wreck divers practice this skill and it is better to experience the scenario in practice than "understand it" via a forum post.

Third, let's look at an entanglement scenario at 100ft. How long do you think your 40cf bottle will last you when you are fighting for you life? I'll let you work out the math but will say that those few minutes will be the longest minutes of your life.

So back to the original question in the thread: are pony bottle dangerous? No, they're not but they may lead some divers astray. If your dive plans raise concerns about redundancy and dealing with emergencies, get sidemount/double training, learn how to dive in wrecks. And no matter what you do, dive conservatively. Finally, look at the incident statistics. Equipment failure is not on top of the list.

 

[KenE]

I sure wish I could be so arrogant and perfect to not need a pony! Unfortunately, I am human, make mistakes, get narked, and many other reasons why I might benefit from having a pony. So, I will carry the pony, rather have and not need it then need it and not have it. Don't feed the trolls!

 

[happy-diver]

I have been diving solo for many many many moons, in rougher ocean conditions than most if not all
both with and without an AUXILLIARY so some may exclaim "But something could happen tomorrow!"
and I would say "But I'm not diving tomorrow, does that mean I get a no incident credit for next time!"

 

[Cthippo]

I can't imagine a situation where Inwould be better off without my pony than with it, and than includes buddy dives. Another 40 cuft ( that is over half of what is on my back) is going to make any situation short of a sudden loss of consciousness easier to manage.

 

[steinbil]

You sound absolutely silly. The pony works in ANY kind of failure - it does not matter why. You seem to want to argue that the best way to prevent accidents is to avoid accidents - no sheeet!

This week I screwed up. I was distracted and about 110 feet deep, I was wrestling with a lobster and getting pissed and probably breathing too hard. I knew I was close to the end of the dive; I put the lobster in the bag, grabbed the console, and felt the hose was limp. I was so pissed, I didn't even look at the pressure.

I pressed the inflate button and relaxed and did not kick and tried to slow my breathing. At around 60 feet or something, I took a peak at my computer, I had thought that I was approaching the nodeco limit but apparently failed to check my gauges frequently enough. So when I checked the computer, it said like 5-6 minutes of required deco.

So now I was really pissed at myself, not watching time or air pressure carefully. Perhaps I accidentally went a little deep at the end of the dive and moved out to around 115, which might have caused the computer to quickly spank me with some deco? I'm not super worried about going into a little deco, but I really hate being irresponsible and not being aware of it and making a conscious decision about it. I've not done something like this in the last several hundreds of dives, perhaps I am out of practice because I didn't dive for almost two weeks.

Did my normal deep stop at 50 to 40 feet for a minute or so and then made my way to 30 feet, all still sipping my air. I then decided I should be "smart" and confirm the pony is going to work before I run completely out, so I switch to the pony for the remainder of the deco and an extra minute or so - just to be super safe LOL.

Switched back to the primary on the surface and breathed it climbing out and until I dropped my tank on board. I ended up using about 1000 psi in a 13 cuft pony.

There is this week's example of why I wear a pony bottle. It helps unlucky divers and stupid ones. I was solo so there was no buddy to look to.

Question: Do you think you would have gotten into this situation if you didn't have a pony? I don't mean to imply that the pony was the issue in your case, but clearly there has been a lot of drift in what risks you are willing to take compared to normal safe diving practices. It seems like a textbook example of normalization of deviance. Everyone makes mistakes, of course, and we are all stupid from time to time. If you had planned with ample gas reserves, you probably would have had more of a buffer before you ran low on air, even while distracted. Maybe having a pony allowed you to not be as vigilant about gas planning and keeping track? Why did you allow yourself to get so close to the NDL that being distracted had you go into deco? Are you diving as aggressively solo as you would with a buddy? A more conservative approach would have allowed for more mistakes, which we all commit. Whatever the reason for the lack of conservatism in your dive, for some divers a pony might contribute to this.

 

[steinbil]

Unless you always dive with the same super-reliable buddy, or as part of a specialized team, it appears your dive-buddy is giving you a false sense of security. Your "swimming redundant air" has never swam off to look at a fish?

I never understood this sentiment. Buddy diving is a two way street. Even with terrible and non-attentive buddies, I've never gotten separated. Why? If they are not reliable, I take 100% of the responsibility to stay close to my buddy. Is that fun? No, that's why I prefer better buddies. But it would take a lot for someone to get away from me underwater, unless I'm not paying attention. So maybe the people saying this are not the most attentive themselves...

Hahahahahaha

Proper gas planning is utilizing what you have for the dive ahead of you essentially. It does not take into account a free flow near your turn pressure. It does not take into account a burst hose. It does not take into account current pressing your purge causing a flow (happened to my buddy). It does not take into account your buddy blowing through their reserves because of exertion and needing your air. By having a pony you can share your back gas down to X psi and then switch to the pony. If you have one slung you might even just pass it off. Your absolutes in diving will get you hurt and make for contentious replies.

Proper gas planning is not what you think it is. It absolutely takes into account gas sharing and critical failures.

 

[BlueTrin]

whats with all the pony threads ? we've discussed this ad nauseam

Ok let’s vote to do a split fins thread next?

 

[johndiver999]

Question: Do you think you would have gotten into this situation if you didn't have a pony? I don't mean to imply that the pony was the issue in your case, but clearly there has been a lot of drift in what risks you are willing to take compared to normal safe diving practices. It seems like a textbook example of normalization of deviance. Everyone makes mistakes, of course, and we are all stupid from time to time. If you had planned with ample gas reserves, you probably would have had more of a buffer before you ran low on air, even while distracted. Maybe having a pony allowed you to not be as vigilant about gas planning and keeping track? Why did you allow yourself to get so close to the NDL that being distracted had you go into deco? Are you diving as aggressively solo as you would with a buddy? A more conservative approach would have allowed for more mistakes, which we all commit. Whatever the reason for the lack of conservatism in your dive, for some divers a pony might contribute to this.

Who knows. Having the pony generally gives me more leeway. Generally I run out of time before air, not sure why that did not happen on this dive. I was using a new regulator that seemed to be set up very easy to inhale and I had not been diving for longer than normal (like 2 weeks), so maybe those were possible reasons, but obviously I was careless and distracted to a considerable degree. Perhaps this incident will encourage me to be more careful going forward.

As for aggressive diving, I probably dive more aggressive when nobody is dependent upon me underwater, which is more often than not lately.

As for the deco status, I often deliberately go into deco, but just a few minutes, not more than I feel confident that I can clear with the air in my main tank OR the air in my pony, so as mentioned it was not that big of a deal for me. I knew I could make it up on the pony, but I do not like to depend on the pony. And it is disappointing and irresponsible to place myself in that vulnerable situation without making a conscious decision to do so.

Someone can easily claim that in this specific situation, the pony was used as a crutch for stupid diving, which is not an unfair assessment. On the other hand, I am typically not that stupid and for the vast majority of dives, the pony is providing insurance for unexpected gear failure, rather than brain farts. Not to mention, I would be quite uncomfortable diving past about 60 feet without my own redundancy; I have seen too many things happen to do otherwise.

In this situation, I possibly could have done the whole ascent sipping the main tank, but that was not a given.

If you step back and think about it, relying on a pony to get you to the surface presents the same amount of risk as relying on a single primary bottle (with no redundancy) to get you to the surface (assuming the remaining volumes in each tank are the same). In either situation, you are betting that one system will not fail. As mentioned I try to avoid being dependent on one system to make it home.

 

[Boarderguy]

Proper gas planning is not what you think it is. It absolutely takes into account gas sharing and critical failures.

"Proper" gas planning, 3rds, do take into account catastrophic failures and are used more frequently in situations where you absolutely need the buffer (caves, wrecks, very deep, etc). The average rec diver is using a turn pressure of about 1/2 with a plan to return in the 500-750 range. A critical failure (incident if you had a pony) is now an emergency. Dark, cold, snowy waters and your 6ft of separation is enough to cause problems. Having a redundant air source gives you time to address most problems while you either 1) get to your buddy and begin sharing back gas or 2) signal and surface while not being tethered to your buddy.

When I dive I'm not going to babysit a shịtty partner unless they're my family. I dive so I can go see what I want. I'm often on a scooter and now that I have my own it will be even more so. We're all down there to float and be away from people. If I'm with a buddy that can't fin next to me when I'm at a slow speed or hold onto my tow handle, then they aren't my type of buddy. If they're diving with me they either have their own redundancy or know how to do a cesa. If they're with me they know I have a pony and will keep an eye out for them, but I won't be watching them. Team diving makes sense in critical environments. Rec diving with light deco (under 10 min) I'd rather be solo or with a solo mindset buddy. Gas planning for my style of diving is what will get me to see what I want to and back up. That includes my pony in case I end up needing more deco time because I saw something and wanted to watch it longer or got distracted by a nosy 6 gill... absolutes get people killed and kill conversations.