Advanced Open Water Disappointment

[Edward3c]

What a disingenuous comment.
I'm not blaming the student. It's a matter of fact that some students have more talented than others that need more time to be ok with taking off the mask for instance. In NO way have I blamed any student in my last comment or any other comment.



Kneeling a few times in initial training is not even 'building a habit'.
This is such complete and utter nonsense. I have done skills kneeling in my PADI OWD too and never did it after the class until I started teaching.

Have you ever actually worked as dive instructor have you only done weekend class with a couple of people at a time?

Put students on there knees, even for one lesson, sets the precedent.

 

[berndo]

I did own CCDS and also Florida Keys Reef-Divers in Cudjoe Key.

And you don't see the difference between weekend instructors with little experience and and people who actually do classes for a living?

 

[berndo]

Put students on there knees, even for one lesson, sets the precedent.

I disagree, it's just for the pool and OW1 or 2 dependent on the student's skill level. If the students are good enough or when your're doing the training with a club over many weeks with multible pool session, sure.
But when you have 3.5 days and you have little time in the pool you're better of getting them comfortable with the basics and procede from there.
I dive in neutral bouyancy and I did PADI OWD in the 90s in the baltic sea were we kneeled in class an the pool and in the super shallow sand but never after... you can't it's all mud below 5m.

 

[boulderjohn]

Once a skill is learned while kneeling, a student almost always kneels to do it.

The educational concept involved here his called the law of primacy. It was actually part of the first draft of our neutral buoyancy article, but it had to be removed for reasons of length. Here is an example.

When the dive shop I was working for added technical diving instruction, our shop manager, a master instructor, took a discover doubles class from the tech instructor. He had her do basic skills in the deep end of the pool. He demonstrated them first, and then she did them. He demonstrated the mask clearing, and when he indicated that she should do it, she immediately rose up and knelt on the bottom of the pool before clearing her mask. He told her to do it again. She went on her knees again. He finally had to demonstrate clearly that he wanted her to do it while neutrally buoyant and in horizontal trim before she got the idea that he wanted her to do it that way, too. She had thousands of dives in her experience, and she had taught countless students, but she had always had to go vertical to clear her mask.

 

[The Chairman]

The educational concept involved here his called the law of primacy.

Yeah. I know. It's a part of a NAUI IDC. There are other rules too, but this one seems to leave the biggest mark. I've seen too many divers on the reefs kneeling to clear their masks.

Here's Pete's rule: It's easier to teach a skill correctly, than to break a habit. You can see that in this thread. An instructor who has a habit of teaching on their knees can't conceive of teaching any differently.

 

[boulderjohn]

t's easier to teach a skill correctly, than to break a habit.

My skiing and golf skills are perfect illustrations I was largely self-taught in my younger days, and many expensive lessons in later years could not erase the poor skills I had so thoroughly ingrained.

 

[boulderjohn]

Some students are more talented than others. That's a fact of life. Not everybody learns at the same pace. It's not the students fault OR the instructor fault. A 55 years old obese guy who's never did any sports in his live and sits at a desk all day wont learn as fast as a 23 years old who's been swimming, snorkling and playing sports since he was 5 years old.

This is absolutely true. No question about it.

It is also irrelevant.

Your problem is that you see it as "some students can transition from kneeling to neutrally buoyant more easily than others." But the transition is unnecessary. What you cannot seem to grasp is that starting while neutrally buoyant is easier for all.

 

[Edward3c]

But when you have 3.5 days and you have little time in the pool you're better of getting them comfortable with the basics and procede from there.

Potentially, there lies your misconception. Teaching neutrally buoyancy from the start doesn't take any longer than teaching on knees.

 

[L13]

Potentially, there lies your misconception. Teaching neutrally buoyancy from the start doesn't take any longer than teaching on knees.

If I understand the idea correctly, reordering how things are taught (buoyancy before other skills instead of after) is an investment of some time up front for a large payoff in learning rate at the end, and in any case better learning by the end.

 

[berndo]

My skiing and golf skills are perfect illustrations I was largely self-taught in my younger days, and many expensive lessons in later years could not erase the poor skills I had so thoroughly ingrained.

It's false anagoly. Kneeling is not a skill you learn nor is it a habit you ingrain. It makes it easier for some people to do the mask skill the first couple of times in the pool, for instance, as it reduces task load.

There is no 'transition' from kneeling, you add difficulty by adding the hoover.

You ingrain something when you do it over and over again (like skiing over years). You do NOT kneel over and over again, not on every dive and not over years.

You think frontloading a class is always better (don't have that much experience with short classes and people with large difference in talent) but I can cause frustration in the weaker students which in turn causes more issues down the line. Frontloading might sound good on paper and works with good students or lots of (pool) time but it doesn't in every situation. If you just do 2 or 3 pax classes with more than 3 day (which I suspect is all you know) than it works. That's why I ask you for your background.

---

---

A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

We have a topic about which people feel passionately. I suspect we will not resolve it here. Let us all remain polite.

---