Advanced Open Water Disappointment

[berndo]

Potentially, there lies your misconception. Teaching neutrally buoyancy from the start doesn't take any longer than teaching on knees.

It does. Hovering is a skill. Removing the mask is a skill. Some people have issues breathing without the mask and need more time to learn. Some people can hover 5 min into the pool session, some need to focus and need several hours. Getting one thing out of the way early, it helps.
Again, when you're doing training in your club, you have more time in the pool. Having 4 or five random people in a 3 day class is a different scenario.

That's why I ask if people have actually done these classes... but as you can see, no answer. I've done both and there is a difference.

 

[berndo]

is an investment of some time up front for a large payoff in learning rate at the end, and in any case better learning by the end.

What they don't understand is that the PADI/SSI 3.5 day OWD model doesn't give you enough time to frontload. Many classes in resorts have students that require more time. I asked whether they're weekend instructors because usually weekend instructors train locals and have several weekends plus possible extra weekends. A resort type instructor has 3.5 days because people are on vacation. One is not like the other.
They also way overstate the 'payoff'.

 

[rsingler]

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[boulderjohn]

If I understand the idea correctly, reordering how things are taught (buoyancy before other skills instead of after) is an investment of some time up front for a large payoff in learning rate at the end, and in any case better learning by the end.

The early "instruction" in buoyancy is not actually instruction in buoyancy. Oh, you do explain somethings briefly, but the students are learning it on their own while doing the early skills. More importantly, they are learning it while the other students in class are performing their skills. They are learning it during all skills in the class and during the time traditional students are kneeling and awaiting their turns.

 

[L13]

It does. Hovering is a skill. Removing the mask is a skill. Some people have issues breathing without the mask and need more time to learn. Some people can hover 5 min into the pool session, some need to focus and need several hours. Getting one thing out of the way early, it helps.

I think this is their idea. Getting one thing out of the way early. The question is, which one thing has the most payoff for getting it done early. which things most depend on other things to make them easier to learn, or more relaxed, etc.

You think it is more important to conqueror breathing without a mask first or early. they think it is more valuable to conqueror buoyancy first or early. My thought is that either one is definitively better than the other, or it probably doesn't matter. I am leaning towards it mattering and that buoyancy should be first, but I am a new DM and admit to limited experience.

 

[BlueTrin]

I think this is their idea. Getting one thing out of the way early. The question is, which one thing has the most payoff for getting it done early. which things most depend on other things to make them easier to learn, or more relaxed, etc.

You think it is more important to conqueror breathing without a mask first or early. they think it is more valuable to conqueror buoyancy first or early. My thought is that either one is definitively better than the other, or it probably doesn't matter. I am leaning towards it mattering and that buoyancy should be first, but I am a new DM and admit to limited experience.

You have to admit that there is no ‘peak performance mask wearing’ or ‘peak performance regulator breathing’ class, I wonder if that’s a clue

 

[boulderjohn]

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I would do the same sequence as all students.

1. Lean down with the regulator in your mouth and breathe for a while.
2. After demonstration, put air in the BCD and float, kicking around the shallow end of the pool while yu get used to it and while I pick out the bicycle kickers and correct other obvious problems (usually over kicking).
3. After demonstration, do the same thing and then dump air from the BCD until you are under water swimming around. If you go the the bottom, add a touch of air. In the meantime, I will check and adjust weighting.
4. After explanation, drop to the floor in prone position facing me. Add a touch of air until your body is rising and falling slightly as you breathe. I will demonstrate my breathing as we do this. Breathe with me--s l o w l y. Pause slightly between inhaling and exhaling.
5. I will always be hovering a few inches off the bottom--it's OK for you to touch the bottom lightly with your legs or fins. Stay horizontal, not 45°. Try to transition to not touching as the class goes on. (Staying nearly horizontal is more important than light touching.)
6. After surface explanation, watch as I take the regulator out of my mouth, lay it on the floor, blow a tiny stream of bubbles, look at my watch, drum my fingers, and otherwise demonstrate that taking the regulator out of the mouth is no big deal, so there is no need to panic and act in a frenzy during the coming skills when the regulator is out.
7. Rise and begin the first skill--regulator recovery.

That gets the most concerned student calm and ready to go. It is 100% of the "frontloading" I ever did. It takes a few minutes, and it saves loads of time later on.

 

[boulderjohn]

It's false anagoly. Kneeling is not a skill you learn nor is it a habit you ingrain. It makes it easier for some people to do the mask skill the first couple of times in the pool, for instance, as it reduces task load.

Sorry. Kneeling is no less of a task load than being in a comfortable prone position.

 

[boulderjohn]

Kneeling is not a skill you learn nor is it a habit you ingrain. It makes it easier for some people to do the mask skill the first couple of times in the pool, for instance, as it reduces task load.

I taught hovering at the same point in the course as always. By then, students have learned a lot and can do it easily.

One of the reasons students have trouble with the no mask mask skill is that they are on their knees. The bubbles they exhale go up their faces and into their noses. It bothers them. When they are horizontal, the bubbles go by their cheeks and do not bother them. Try it. The skill is much easier for them that way,

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

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Unfortunately, you edited your comment as you had a number of topics to address. Regarding nervous students, I think I cover that here:

Teaching Neutrally Buoyant and Trimmed: Pt2 - Mask, Snorkel & Fin Skills -

What if mask skills weren’t new to your students when taking them underwater for the first time? Have you ever thought about teaching finning with just a mask and snorkel? Learn how you can teach mask and skills to your students in chest deep water before putting them in scuba gear with just a...

www.tdisdi.com

I didn't invent any of the content, just modified what was given to me by Peter Guy.

We all should know that stress inhibits a person's ability to learn, that's why it is paramount for an instructor to take the steps to get his students comfortable in the water. Peter gave me some incredibly useful tools for doing just that, and I have just shared that in that particular blog post.