Yukon tangent thread

[SC_Hoaty]

. So someones laziness or forgetfulness contributed to a death.

And you can prove that how?

 

[divemaster dave]

And you can prove that how?

Get out a dictionary and look up the word nonfeasance. The crew did not do their jobs. They missed roll call, left the dive site. That is the contribution to the death. This has already been explained numerous times in this thread, go back and read. If the DM and CAPT had been watching bubbles, known that he was overdue, had the knowledge to think and ask how anyone can possibly stay down so long on an AL80, send a diver in to see what the hell he is doing, notified the lifeguards that there may be a problem PANPAN or MAYDAY, any of 100 different things to try and ensure this guy makes it back on the boat. A ton of things that could have been done, but the wrong thing to do would be to high tail it out of there to another dive site and go diving, figure it out an hour later that they forgot someone and the start a rescue. Why not start the rescue an hour previous and bring the perhaps lifeless body to the surface and try CPR try the AED. There may or may not have been a chance for him. But after 1.5 hours underwater without breathing they dropped his chances to zero. There is an expectation of safety and that you will not be left behind and the crew will use their skills and training to assist you. This goes beyond the good Samaritan, they had a job to do and failed miserably.

The diver support platform (aka dive boat) was 2 miles away from the diver. Not exactly in a position to do anything but perhaps the crew getting a suntan while their customer lay on the sea floor, alone, dying.

 

[ZenDiver.3D]

Are you effing serious? Get out a dictionary and look up the word nonfeasance. The crew did not do their jobs. They missed roll call, left the dive site. That is the contribution to the death. This has already been explained numerous times in this thread, go back and read. If the DM and CAPT had been watching bubbles, known that he was overdue, had the knowledge to think and ask how anyone can possibly stay down so long on an AL80, send a diver in to see what the hell he is doing, notified the lifeguards that there may be a problem PANPAN or MAYDAY, any of 100 different things to try and ensure this guy makes it back on the boat. A ton of things that could have been done, but the wrong thing to do would be to high tail it out of there to another dive site and go diving, figure it out an hour later that they forgot someone and the start a rescue. Why not start the rescue an hour previous and bring the perhaps lifeless body to the surface and try CPR try the AED. There may or may not have been a chance for him. But after 1.5 hours underwater without breathing they dropped his chances to zero. There is an expectation of safety and that you will not be left behind and the crew will use their skills and training to assist you. This goes beyond the good Samaritan, they had a job to do and failed miserably.

I don't know how thick the shades are that are covering your eyes but open them up. The diver support platform (aka dive boat) was 2 miles away form the diver. Not exactly in a position to do anything but perhaps the crew getting a suntan while their customer lay on the sea floor, alone, dying.

The boat leaving is an issue but most likely not a contributing factor to the diver's death. We cannot determine that for sure based on the information at hand.

The dive computer would be really helpful. Perhaps, when and if we get further info, we will be able to decide.

You may want to quit laying this on the diver support. It only takes a few moments to drown. They may not have been able to do anything helpful. And in most cases, when a diver is ooa and is brought up form the bottom, surface care, cpr etc.., will not help. IT is more for the living needing to try.

You have brought up the use of an AED many times. That is only useful in specific instances/scenarios. It is unlikely to help a drowning victim who has been down 7 -10 minutes without 02. Let's say he was found within minutes of being ooa. They still would take a safe ascent and that would put him past the time span anyway. We have no idea when in his dive he went ooa. This time frame may mean that the boat was helpless to anything but retrieve anyway. I hope for that, actually. Not because I am a huge fan of the Humboldt crew, but because I have sympathy for anyone who has to live with something like this. I wouldn't wish that self-recrimination and guilt on anyone.

 

[SC_Hoaty]

Are you effing serious? Get out a dictionary and look up the word nonfeasance. The crew did not do their jobs. They missed roll call, left the dive site. That is the contribution to the death. This has already been explained numerous times in this thread, go back and read. If the DM and CAPT had been watching bubbles, known that he was overdue, had the knowledge to think and ask how anyone can possibly stay down so long on an AL80, send a diver in to see what the hell he is doing, notified the lifeguards that there may be a problem PANPAN or MAYDAY, any of 100 different things to try and ensure this guy makes it back on the boat. A ton of things that could have been done, but the wrong thing to do would be to high tail it out of there to another dive site and go diving, figure it out an hour later that they forgot someone and the start a rescue. Why not start the rescue an hour previous and bring the perhaps lifeless body to the surface and try CPR try the AED. There may or may not have been a chance for him. But after 1.5 hours underwater without breathing they dropped his chances to zero. There is an expectation of safety and that you will not be left behind and the crew will use their skills and training to assist you. This goes beyond the good Samaritan, they had a job to do and failed miserably.

I don't know how thick the shades are that are covering your eyes but open them up. The diver support platform (aka dive boat) was 2 miles away form the diver. Not exactly in a position to do anything but perhaps the crew getting a suntan while their customer lay on the sea floor, alone, dying.

I hear you, but also have read the others on this thread who (IMO correctly) assert this is a red herring. My frickin grass is tall, and really needed mowing Saturday, and I chose to ignore it. Did I contribute to this incident also?

How did any of this "contribute" (your word!) to his death? Remember, you stated it CONTRIBUTED, no might have, may have, or maybe in there. It is a FACT according to you. So again - you can prove this how?

 

[divemaster dave]

With the two lifeless bodies that I helped to the surface on two separate occasions it made a difference. After using my EMT and rescue diver training. They lived and thanked me a few days later for guess what, saving their lives. Yes CPR and rescue breathing worked.

Perhaps divers just have better survival rates on other boats besides this one. Since apparently according to this thread revival efforts for divers are useless. So again I ask why even carry O2, AED, be CPR trained, have a rescue diver cert or DM cert. It's all useless. Is a rescue diver cert only good for dragging a corpse back to the boat to fit into a body bag? If so I want a refund.

If you screw up during your dive, like run out of air or have a gear malfunction then just bend over and kiss your ass goodbye you are as good as dead. Lay there in the sand cause it's your fault you got into this situation and not really the crews job to help you out. It's not their job and probably just a waste of time and worthless anyway.

A DM only needs to prove medical and CPR training upon initial DM certification and a Captain every 5 years. I recert mine every year. I have a higher expectation of myself and local crews.

 

[Hetland]

If the DM and CAPT had been watching bubbles, known that he was overdue, had the knowledge to think and ask how anyone can possibly stay down so long on an AL80, send a diver in to see what the hell he is doing, notified the lifeguards that there may be a problem PANPAN or MAYDAY, any of 100 different things to try and ensure this guy makes it back on the boat. A ton of things that could have been done...

Nope. He would have been dead by the time a diver found him, and really, really, really !@#$% dead by the time they brought him up. Even if they put a diver in the second his last bubble reached the surface.

but the wrong thing to do would be to high tail it out of there to another dive site and go diving, figure it out an hour later that they forgot someone and the start a rescue.

No one disputes that, but it's almost a sure thing it didn't kill the guy.

Why not start the rescue an hour previous and bring the perhaps lifeless body to the surface and try CPR try the AED.

An AED won't fire in asystole (flatline) so it's useless. Even if you were able to pull off some miracle and get his heart going the instant he was brought up, he's meat, well beyond brain-dead.

There may or may not have been a chance for him.

No chance.

But after 1.5 hours underwater without breathing they dropped his chances to zero.

Ten minutes without air is the same as ten days. Dead is dead.

There is an expectation of safety and that you will not be left behind and the crew will use their skills and training to assist you. This goes beyond the good Samaritan, they had a job to do and failed miserably.

Agreed, but it probably didn't kill him.

I don't know how thick the shades are that are covering your eyes but open them up.

Take a CPR class. If you have already, go back and take it again.

The diver support platform (aka dive boat) was 2 miles away from the diver. Not exactly in a position to do anything but perhaps the crew getting a suntan while their customer lay on the sea floor, alone, dying.

He was dead 10 minutes after he ran out of air. Likely before the boat ever left.

 

[diverrex]

If the DM and CAPT had been watching bubbles, known that he was overdue, had the knowledge to think and ask how anyone can possibly stay down so long on an AL80, send a diver in to see what the hell he is doing, notified the lifeguards that there may be a problem PANPAN or MAYDAY, any of 100 different things to try and ensure this guy makes it back on the boat.

Is it typical for the DM or captain to be "watching bubbles"? The boats I go out on I don't expect them to be doing this, and I don't really think they do. They know I went in the water but they don't know how big a tank I have, what my SAC rate is, or exactly when I'll be back. I may come back after a short 30 minute dive or I might be back in 75 minutes, depending on the site. I would expect, even with roll calls, that the boat would only start searching for a missing diver many minutes after the "be back" time has expired, in fact too many minutes to survive if you are drowned on the bottom.

I really don't expect the boat to be paying that much attention to me, mostly just that I got in the water and I eventually came out. For me I only expect roll calls to make sure I'm not left drifting on the surface. But if I'm lying on the bottom somewhere out of air I think it's virtually impossible that anyone on the boat would know I should be back, gear up, get in the water and then actually find me in time to make any diffrence. I truly think that's asking too much of the crew, and if that's what people really think they shouldn't be going out on boats, at least not out here is So Cal.

 

[N2DeepInAz]

If the DM and CAPT had been watching bubbles, known that he was overdue, had the knowledge to think and ask how anyone can possibly stay down so long on an AL80......

Dude, it's a wreck dive. If you do any penetration your bubbles may NOT ever reach the surface. So then because someone may have gone into the wreck you're gonna send in a search team because the bubble stream stopped? Let's be realistic here. Additionally, I did a dive on the Yukon last month for 26 minutes and had to surface cause my dive buddy was at his turn point. I got out of the water with 1500psi, keeping in mind that I started with 2900psi. So I easily could've stayed down longer. Every diver is responsible for themselves from the minute they hit the water, no exceptions.

Really, you need to lighten up and realize there wasn't anything the crew could've done if the guy had a medical incident underwater at 100'. Stop blaming the boat for this divers death, stop blaming solo diving for it while you're at it as well.

Check into the fact that he was 48 years old. Age does indeed play a factor in diving. I know quite a few 40 somethings that are so out of shape they can barely lug their gear to the boat. Who knows if this guy was in shape or not as there hasn't been a description of it to my knowledge. It's a scientific fact that as we age, exercise becomes more taxing on the entire body.

Give it a rest and stop executing the boat and crew without having anymore facts than have already been presented.

 

[divemaster dave]

Wow Hetland. I was just thinking I hope you aren't a cop, lawyer or judge cause everyone is innocent. Blame no one for anything eh? I think we just solved our prison overcrowding problem. Evey person is completely to blame for their own actions, huh? A store gets robbed cause they had money in it. A diver dies cause its his own fault.

And still no expectation for rescue. I think I just had a revelation. Perhaps when you go diving you write on your waiver, tanks and c card that you are DNR (do not resuscitate). Since it's useless trying, don't waste your time trying to rescue you. If you have DAN insurance cancel it, it's useless.

 

[Hetland]

With the two lifeless bodies that I helped to the surface on two separate occasions it made a difference. After using my EMT and rescue diver training. They lived and thanked me a few days later for guess what, saving their lives. Yes CPR and rescue breathing worked.

You should buy a lottery ticket. I've done CPR probably a hundred times with a 0% recovery rate. I think the average "recovery" rate is around 8%, so I was batting low, but most of my customers were probably down too long before cpr was started anyway. And cpr is all but useless without drugs and advanced life support.

In any event, if the folks you revived were out of oxygen for more than a few minutes, they likely thanked you by not soiling themselves in your presence, because they were vegetables.