Yukon tangent thread

[SC_Hoaty]

Perhaps we as a community should enlist our lawmakers to ensure that there are standards in the US, and even abroad, for accounting for divers on a charter boat. I am not a fan of more regulation, but this seems like such a small thing to ask of dive charter operators, and at no cost to taxpayers.

No Cost? Is enforcement free?

 

[The Chairman]

Page 2.27. It was revised about a decade ago and excluded the 225 yard requirement. If that embarrasses you, good. It should. It is unacceptable, in my opinion, that that be the swim requirement for a scuba diver.

Shenanigans. Any competent instructor (which you are not), can ascertain a student's ability to swim within a few strokes. Also, NAUI allows any instructor to increase standards as they see fit, so this standard excludes absolutely NOTHING. The only person who should be hanging their head in shame here is YOU. You act like you have these high standards and you have accomplished NOTHING worthwhile. It's evident to me that you certainly don't understand what it takes to be an instructor and your online hubris would indicate that you would make a lousy student.

It's been said that engineers know everything about nothing while architects know nothing about everything. I guess some engineers only pretend to know everything.

 

[BigDawgDiver]

Normally, I leave these discussions to my wife as she is eloquent and "to the point". I also tend to agree with 99.89% of what she says. Since she promised to be a good girl.....

Forgive me. I meant competent instructors. As for needing more knowledge, you still haven't stated one item that I am incorrect about. A person who can't cover the length of a pool safely cannot swim. If you believe otherwise, you exemplify the exact problem I am referring to. Don't feel too bad, you are not alone.

She never said the swim test was not needed. PADI and SDI both require a swim test. Thanks to Ken, I now know the NAUI standard for a swim test. We have stopped training on more than a couple of students and reffered them to a swimming instructor because they could not pass the swim test. If you have first-hand knowledge that an instructor is cutting standards, report them to the agency they represent.

Are you going to tell me next that I need a telescope and an astrophysics degree to recognize that the sky is blue?

No, but taking off the "Holier than thou" rose colored glasses would help.

Incorrect. But I'm not surprised. A master diver cannot give instruction, but they can participate with classes in a variety of capacities. Including pulling people who can't swim from the water.

If your instructor is skirting standards by allowing a "Divemaster candidate" to assist, then so be it. PADI and SDI standards state that a Divemaster or Assistant Instructor or another Instructor are the only individuals that can assist. Otherwise, you are just a lifeguard watching the swim test.

It wouldn't really matter if he had the training, either way. He is dead. Either he didn't have training and was allowed to dive in a way he was not prepared for, or he had the training and failed to utilize it properly. In any case, these actions resulted in a dead diver. The only thing a cert card would show at this point is that the boat is slightly less negligent. They are still screwed for leaving a diver in the water.

You are correct. A certification is meaningless without the will to use it properly. Such as an instructor who cuts standards. From what I have seen thorughout this thread, I would never allow you to DM any class I instructed. You do not have the attitude for it that I can tell.

 

[tracydr]

:spit: Are you freaking serious?!?!?!?!

Can't remember the last time mine was checked buying gear or getting a fill.

 

[divemaster dave]

I don't understand what you people expect from a dive boat.

This sort of thing happened a few years ago to a boat in LA. Fortunately that diver lived to tell the story as he was rescued on the surface by the Boy Scouts since the boat left the area. That OP still faces multi-million dollar lawsuits. Perhaps if the crew is incompetent and isn't going to do anything we should staff the boat with some Boy Scouts?

You can start your research here if you want to know what a judge has ruled is the responsibility of dive boat Ops.

http://www.cdnn.info/news/safety/s080324.html

Here is a small blurb. "The risk of scuba diving does not include being left unaccounted for ... and left floating on your own," Koepke said.

 

[Hetland]

Maybe the mods are deleting the posts where I have very clearly stated that I have nothing against solo diving under the right conditions.

Maybe.... Where could I have possibly gotten the idea that you had an unreasonably low opinion of solo divers or photographers...

Allowing a man to dive alone, performing photography on a deep dive....

Photographers are, in fact, notorious for being lax on paying attention to anything not directly involved with their pictures. I'm not saying all of them are bad divers nor am I claiming that photography in itself is reckless. But it is a condition that should be taken into consideration when doing a spot evaluation of a diver you have never met, especially if they are requesting permission to do something outside the normally accepted standards.

.... You can thank this kind of reckless behavior for the recent increases in liability insurance prices for dive boat operators and the subsequent higher rates that we all pay to use these boats.

All of them will corroborate the fact that photographers are notorious for forgetting to adhere to basic safety rules in the interest of getting a good picture. They are typically (not always) the worst buddies on the planet, unless you consider their camera to be their buddy. You can deny this as well, but all it does is run your credibility down a little further, which is unfortunate. I've always considered you a fairly well informed and knowledgeable person.

Yes he did. And they knew he was dividing his attention by having that camera.

You forgot to mention diving with a buddy. That is taught as rule #1, even before you are taught to read your pressure gauge. At least it was when I was taught.

Have you ever even been in the water with a photographer or is this just something you're parroting from all your dive instructor buddies? I honestly can't believe this opinion is based on personal experience, unless you are a divemaster specializing in vacation-only divers.

 

[Hetland]

and you probably carry a loaded gun, too? Oooh, better stay away fro ca you bad man!

:d:d:d

 

[TheEngineer]

Shenanigans. Any competent instructor (which you are not), can ascertain a student's ability to swim within a few strokes. Also, NAUI allows any instructor to increase standards as they see fit, so this standard excludes absolutely NOTHING. The only person who should be hanging their head in shame here is YOU. You act like you have these high standards and you have accomplished NOTHING worthwhile. It's evident to me that you certainly don't understand what it takes to be an instructor and your online hubris would indicate that you would make a lousy student.

It's been said that engineers know everything about nothing while architects know nothing about everything. I guess some engineers only pretend to know everything.

Couldn't stay away, could you? Even after telling people not to feed the trolls...sad.

Call shenanigans if you want. Then go pick up a copy of the NAUI S&P. That is precisely how it reads. Sure, a competent instructor will go beyond that requirement, but who said the people certifying these non-swimmers are competent? The rest of your blah blah blah crap is just you getting butthurt that I am RIGHT. You don't like it, do what I do and try to change it by helping people learn the right way. Don't try to suppress information just because you don't happen to like the facts as you tried to do with multiple PM's earlier. Talk about weak.

 

[BigDawgDiver]

Can't remember the last time mine was checked buying gear or getting a fill.

Shops that rent gear and fill tanks in Kuwait give Instructors a discount. When our compressor went down earlier this year, I was more than happy to show my card. 25 tanks is 50 Kuwaiti Dinar for the average Joe. Instructors get fills @ 1 KD per tank. Granted, 1 KD + $3.50 but it adds up quick.

 

[TheEngineer]

Normally, I leave these discussions to my wife as she is eloquent and "to the point". I also tend to agree with 99.89% of what she says. Since she promised to be a good girl.....

Really? You're really going to do this? Okay.

Forgive me. I meant competent instructors. As for needing more knowledge, you still haven't stated one item that I am incorrect about. A person who can't cover the length of a pool safely cannot swim. If you believe otherwise, you exemplify the exact problem I am referring to. Don't feel too bad, you are not alone.

She never said the swim test was not needed. PADI and SDI both require a swim test. Thanks to Ken, I now know the NAUI standard for a swim test. We have stopped training on more than a couple of students and reffered them to a swimming instructor because they could not pass the swim test. If you have first-hand knowledge that an instructor is cutting standards, report them to the agency they represent.

She said I was wrong, I said divers should be able to swim. You do the math. As for thanking Ken, there are a lot of things he could be thanked for, but unfortunately, he quoted an outdated S&P. NAUI has no swimming distance requirement. Feel free to reference my response for their current minimum requirement.

Are you going to tell me next that I need a telescope and an astrophysics degree to recognize that the sky is blue?

No, but taking off the "Holier than thou" rose colored glasses would help.

I'm not holier than anyone. In fact, everything I've stated has been good common sense. The fact that it has been received so poorly surprises me more than anyone. I thought this community promoted knowledge and good practices. I see I overestimated this place.

Incorrect. But I'm not surprised. A master diver cannot give instruction, but they can participate with classes in a variety of capacities. Including pulling people who can't swim from the water.

If yor instructor is skirting standards by allowing a "Divemaster candidate" to assist, then so be it. PADI and SDI standards state that a Divemaster or Assistant Instructor or another Instructor are the only individuals that can assist. Otherwise, you are just a lifeguard watching the swim test.

In the interests of avoiding getting this thread locked again, I will abstain from commenting on PADI. Nothing against them, of course. There are some very good PADI instructors out there. But there are some very, very bad ones as well.

It wouldn't really matter if he had the training, either way. He is dead. Either he didn't have training and was allowed to dive in a way he was not prepared for, or he had the training and failed to utilize it properly. In any case, these actions resulted in a dead diver. The only thing a cert card would show at this point is that the boat is slightly less negligent. They are still screwed for leaving a diver in the water.

You are correct. A certification is meaningless without the will to use it properly. Such as an instructor who cuts standards. From what I have seen thorughout this thread, I would never allow you to DM any class I instructed. You do not have the attitude for it that I can tell.

From what I have seen in your wife's posts, I wouldn't set foot near her operation. More likely, I will be helping retrain the divers that come out of her class after they have their near death (hopefully only near) experience with the training they received.