Your favorite certification agency ...

[Mr. Black]

Very interesting and thoughtful response. Thanks for that.

My writing style isn't the best but I hope I managed to convey my thoughts somewhat coherently.

Another perspective:

Would I NOT do a Tri-Mix course with [insert name of published celebrity tri-mix explorer/pioneer] because he is not affiliated with Agency X ?

Would I turn down a weekend of wreck mentoring with John Chatterton because he wouldn't be able to supply the specific C-card I desire ?

 

[Trace Malinowski]

I think the only agency we might all agree is the best would be the one that certifies winning mega millions lottery tickets.

 

[Doppler]

My writing style isn't the best but I hope I managed to convey my thoughts somewhat coherently.

Another perspective:

Would I NOT do a Tri-Mix course with [insert name of published celebrity tri-mix explorer/pioneer] because he is not affiliated with Agency X ?

Would I turn down a weekend of wreck mentoring with John Chatterton because he wouldn't be able to supply the specific C-card I desire ?

Your writing style is fine... we can all use an editor from time-to-time, and nobody more than me. Your points are well-made.

I believe that the OP stated that he started this thread to get folks comparing curricula and standards... well, that didn't happen and was a long-shot even in a perfect world... but what you've written actually points out the key to why the OP would never get his wish.

From the professional's point of view, an agency does matter... a bit. It informs or completes his or her business model. From the consumer's point of view, it makes no odds at all... unless they look at it as an initiation into a club... The average punter really shouldn't have to give a monkey's because it's all smoke and mirrors, but some do because they buy into the brand. And there's nothing wrong with that, it's just that some people are not joiners and some see the vagaries of taking sides and decline the invitation.

And off the topic a little, a weekend with John will also give one a deeper appreciation of fine red wine... the guy is very knowledgeable on the subject... as well as being smart about many others.

 

[TSandM]

You know, Steve, I like and respect you . . . but I think there is more to some folks' adoption of GUE as a certifying agency than being a joiner, or wanting to be part of a club. Although, in fact, being part of the community, and the advantages that come with that, IS one of the attractions. Still, the organization of the curriculum, the openness of the standards and evaluation criteria, the 100% QA, and the consistency of the teaching from one instructor and course to another are very real assets. That last one, in particular, can be difficult to ensure with other agencies.

 

[Mr. Black]

You know, Steve, I like and respect you . . . but I think there is more to some folks' adoption of GUE as a certifying agency than being a joiner, or wanting to be part of a club. Although, in fact, being part of the community, and the advantages that come with that, IS one of the attractions. Still, the organization of the curriculum, the openness of the standards and evaluation criteria, the 100% QA, and the consistency of the teaching from one instructor and course to another are very real assets. That last one, in particular, can be difficult to ensure with other agencies.

Doppler didn't mention or address GUE at all in his post. The post of mine that he replied to mentioned a mixed bag of agencies. His comments may well have been generic in nature....


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[Trace Malinowski]

Consistency breeds familiarity and familiarity breeds contempt. Many new DIR divers can't wait until they learn the right way to do things, while many experienced DIR divers joke about how wrong the right way actually is. The like-minded tend to remain within the organizational bubble while open-minded individuals seek new learning experiences.

As a certified GUE Tech 2 diver my experience is that GUE taught me to look good while other agencies (TDI, NACD, IANTD, NSS-CDS, PDIC, and PSAI) taught me to "think good."

 

[Doppler]

You know, Steve, I like and respect you . . . but I think there is more to some folks' adoption of GUE as a certifying agency than being a joiner, or wanting to be part of a club...

I never mentioned GUE... and I am not sure I understand where your touchiness is coming from or why you are lecturing me. But allow me the opportunity to do it back to you.

People join clubs... they adopt brands... divers say and I have heard over the years: I am a PADI diver, I am an IANTD nitrox diver, I am an NACD DPV diver, I'm a BSAC First Class Diver etc. etc. And I have heard people say, I am GUE.

I am glad they do... for many years I have worked at developing the art of dropping subtle hints in ads and all sorts of promotional materials to make consumers buy into a brand... take it to heart and hold it dear and close. That's marketing. It works. Oddly enough, it was my job as a copywriter and then a creative director, to do that but frankly, in later life, it makes me a little green around the gills.

I kid myself that I am "above" being manipulated that way... of course I am as susceptible as anyone else. But when I read some of the drivel that people write about brand X or agency Y, I could vomit.

I really don't give a rat's arse about any of it because I quite honestly believe the bickering that goes on between PADI and NAUI and PSAI and NSS-CDS and GUE and UTD is bull**** that gets in the way of the community working together to make things safer and better.

When I began diving, NAUI divers looked down on PADI divers and BSAC divers looked down on all of them... because each thought their training was better than the others and therefore, they were real divers.

Lynne, divers are dying all the ****ing time... every god-damn week, and you have your knickers in a twist about something I did not say. I'd suggest you get a grip on reality.

There are real problems in this dive community: real problems. And informed by my limited understanding of the way pack animals and the clan system work, they will not be solved by people sitting in little pigeonholes looking out at the world and patting themselves on the back and saying: "We're better than that..."

NO single organization or body is immune and no agency, NO agency is above reproach regardless of their for-profit or not-for-profit status, and regardless of how few instructors they have... or how many. They all, over time, morph into something unattractive... and lose members. Been there, done that. Try not to do it any more.

 

[TSandM]

I'm sorry -- maybe I overreacted, but as tired as Bob gets of everybody saying, "Take a GUE class," I get tired of being accused of being a groupie.

I agree with you that there are problems endemic in the process of diver recruitment and training. This is why my husband gives free talks on gas management. It's why I spend a huge amount of time answering questions here on SB. It's why I support an agency that demands real diver skill, and teaches gas management, good buddy skills, and control of ascents. If you look at what kills recreational divers, it's running out of gas and losing buoyancy control. Anybody who is teaching those things well is worth supporting. I think NASE is, at least from reading their promotional materials. I think there are scattered instructors everywhere, teaching for every agency, who are trying to do things right.

The thread wasn't about instructors, though. It was about agencies. So it's important, in answering the question, to look at what differences in agency can mean to divers in every way that an agency is relevant to the individual diver.

 

[heavierthanlead]

It's more about who the instructor is, than what agency. You can have great instructors from lesser known agencies, and crap instructors from the best known one(s)...

 

[WhiteSands]

It's more about who the instructor is, than what agency. You can have great instructors from lesser known agencies, and crap instructors from the best known one(s)...

I think that agencies determine a whole lot of the curriculum so much so that it is a given that what you learn is largely determined by the course structure laid down by the agency.

E.g. from my very limited experience:

Safety stops
PADI - 3mins at 5m
UTD - Min deco

How deep you can go on air
PADI - 40m (or in theory 66m or 1.6 PP02)
UTD - 30m max. No deep air dives.

Air sharing
PADI - Pass octo to your buddy. Drill ends there.
UTD - Full S Drill + Ascent with all stops. Swimming with donated hose, buddy on left, buddy on right, buddy in front.

SMB Deployment
PADI - Cursory demonstration. Only one person in my class got to actually try it in the water. After that, has no memory of how to do it. I never got to touch the SMB in water.
UTD - Drills on SMB deployment on land. Detailed instructions on where to hold reel, how to setup, etc. SMB deployment drills in pool. SMB Deployment at depth in the sea.

Toxing buddy rescue
PADI - No training at OW and AOW level
UTD - Training on buddy rescue at OW level

Propulsion methods
PADI - Only taught big flutter kicks
UTD - Frog, modified frog, helicopter, back kick

There are lots more things I feel are determined by agency that are really beyond the control of the instructor. As a consumer I find that choosing the right agency is crucial to not only your competence but your safety (e.g. safety stops, deep air, etc.)

---------- Post added December 23rd, 2013 at 04:01 PM ----------

Oh yes, one more big difference that I forgot...

Dive planning
PADI - Taught to use tables / calculator to determine SI and pressure groups. This was in theory only, we never did this in practice, and none of the PADI trained divers I know even remember how to use the calculator thinggy 6 months after getting the C card. I found out as I was trying to verify something and asked around, as I have also forgotten how to use it.
UTD - What is the max depth? What is my NDL at this depth? What is my rock bottom pressure / turn pressure? Who is in charge of navigation / SMB deployment / safety stops? All these are discussed before we even hit the water.

Big, big difference in how training is conducted across different agencies. From what I learned talking to GUE instructors, Fundies is even more stringent, and requirements even higher.