Yes/No requirement for Med form

[NAM001]

The student seems to have three real options:
A) Answer the form completely and honestly. If there are any YES answers, get a doctor's signature.
B) Don't answer the form honestly....put all NO answers no matter what.
C) Don't answer the form at all. Get a doctor's signature.

If I get a version (B) form from a middle-aged person, I'm suspicious. There are 1-4 questions that a sedentary middle-aged person is likely to need to put a YES on. So i get the form to the student well in advance so there is no issue of it being the last-minute and no time to get a doctor's signature.

I'd prefer if ALL students had to get a doctor's signature, period. Like in Australia.

My doctor will do an exam but only if he has the exam standards. so the agency provides a physical exam sheet of sorts and the doctor then goes through it and says if the student is elegible in all aspects listed to continue in the training. I had that happen one time because i overheard an operator say if you were over 65 you needed a current medical evaluation saying you are still OK to dive. My doctor said bring the organizations medical standards and he would sign them off and provide the dive health clearance, but he had to have the """"organization issued form""""" listing specific items to use as a guide to say good or not to. The form did not have separate yes or no's to it but a single statement on the bottom that said the above student meets the health conditions required to continue with the event being evaluated for.

 

[tursiops]

If a signatuer meant nothing then why would it be on every financial statement you make for a loan. YES the signature is needed. It is the last thing you fill in saying the form is complete and ready for submission.

Who said a signature means nothing? Not me.

 

[tursiops]

i overheard an operator say if you were over 65 you needed a current medical evaluation saying you are still OK to dive.

There is no PADI rule nor from any other agency I am aware of that says this. What you heard was local made-up baloney.

 

[NAM001]

I resent you suggesting that I'm "playing doctor". You are subverting my point like we're two politicians slugging it out over voters. I don't diagnose diseases or prescribe any treatments so I'm not playing doctor. Please, let's keep this civil.

I am not required to teach everyone that asks me. I choose not to teach those who can't be entirely upfront with me. I can call a class at any time, for any reason and that's what I will choose to do for any mystery illness or condition. You can expose yourself to such liability and be as willfully ignorant as you want. That's certainly your right, but it can't be expected of everyone. I certainly won't willingly put myself or my student in such a situation.


As for those who choose to lie on their releases: please find another instructor. I don't want you as a student if I can't trust you, or you me.

I agree with you 100%. iF i WERE AN INSTRUCTOR AND THEY GAVE ME an incomplete form I would return it and say all questions must be answered yea or no. That is not getting specific health issues. General perhaps but not specific issues. If the student does not agree then they can go somewhere else.

 

[NAM001]

There is no PADI rule nor from any other agency I am aware of that says this. What you heard was local made-up baloney.

I did not claim it was a legit requirement nor that it was a padi requirement. but that it happened and that caused me to check into having a dive clearance form filled out when I turned 65. legit or not the shop rules ,,,, rule who goes on the dive or not. If i remember it was on a boat dive non agency related 2 tank dive trip.

 

[NAM001]

Who said a signature means nothing? Not me.

It was on one of the comments that implied the signature meant nothing because it meant nothing related to health questions. If that was not you then i apoligize I may have not read the statement in the correct context.

Here it is ....... Even so, there is no personal medical information in the signature, so why would it be even an issue to sign it?

I think i read it as why is there a need to sign it. AS OPPOSED TO WHY there would there be an issue if you did not sign it. , perspective, my bad.

 

[mscmicrobiology]

I stand by my original advice: you should become a scuba instructor so you can offer your guarantee to these students, who can also be your patients. Your passion for inclusivity would be a real asset to the diving community.

But simply demanding that others offer your guarantee, no matter how much (in your world) you think such a demand is reasonable, is not going to convince anyone to obey you.

You know what they say: put up or...

Sigh. You know what they say about fighting with pigs. Gotta love the little attempt at an insult at the end.

The only one here looking to be obeyed seems to be you, as the untrained medical professional overriding the professional judgement of physicians and the medical education of their patients. But ultimately you are partially right about one thing. No matter how much (in your world) you think you are to be obeyed without question, you are unqualified, dangerous, and ultimately unlikely to convince people now that they realize this.

For those that are diabetic divers taking insulin, send me a PM if you would like some of the “guaranteed” strategies to make your diving safer from a medical perspective. For anyone with a medical condition (that would be almost everyone if we are honest), don’t let bully instructors keep you from diving or discourage you from being honest with your physician to learn some strategies to make your diving safer. If these bully instructors make you want to hide your conditions, consider taking your business elsewhere and spreading the word about them. You can ultimately become a better diver if you look for a different instructor, one that is willing to work as a team member with you and your physician

For the author of that post, you clearly have a bit of an over inflated ego. Clearly, nothing anyone says here will change that. You, as you say, can do what you want and refuse to teach people for simply having a medical condition, regardless of what a medical professional has determined. It doesn’t change the fact that you have an overinflated sense of self. You clearly feel more qualified than physicians to determine a whether a patient’s medical condition renders them suitable to dive. You are overstepping your bounds. As much as you like to think that you are, you are NOT trained or qualified/certified to render a medical judgement. You are, however, discriminatory. I wouldn’t be surprised if you refuse to teach women because they “bleed” and might pass out underwater from iron deficiency or refuse to teach people of African ancestry since they could have sickle cell and pass out and die. You have an incomplete knowledge base for medicine and the really dangerous part is you cannot recognize that. You are that diver that thinks they are good without the training/experience to know otherwise.

I encourage all trainee divers, with medical conditions or not, to look for an
instructor that knows their own limits. If your instructor cannot recognize these limits, they are dangerous to you and themselves. You are better off looking elsewhere.

Interestingly enough, I am formally trained and qualified to recognize personality traits/disorders. You should chat with your physician about cluster B personality traits.

 

[Colliam7]

Wow some great discussions. I'm not taking sides but just pointing out some inconvenient truths...

• If they check "yes" and get a MD sign off you bet an instructor can still refuse to take them on as a student.
• If you refuse to teach them for no other reason than they checked "yes" (and they have the MD sign off) the student might have some recourse (depending on the laws where you are).

Probably not. It is a matter of 'professional judgement', and a considerable degree of latitude is granted to professionals exercising judgement, as long as the judgement is exercised in good faith, in a manner consistent with standards of practice, is not arbitrary or capricious, and reflects what a reasonably prudent person might do.

Yup it's your business and you can make that call. But then remember that baker said the exact same thing.

That was a somewhat different situation, where the action of the vendor (bakery) was challenged on the basis of (apparent) discrimination. If a scuba instructor elects not to so something because of professional concerns about safety, it would be very difficult to demonstrate that discrimination is involved. (And, just so there is no confusion, it is my understanding the the baker 'won' in the end, when the Supreme Court reversed the ruling of the Colorado Civil Rights Commission: Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission - Ballotpedia. This is not in any way a political statement, BTW, just a statement of fact as I understand it.)

 

[martincohn]

Probably not. It is a matter of 'professional judgement', and a considerable degree of latitude is granted to professionals exercising judgement, as long as the judgement is exercised in good faith, in a manner consistent with standards of practice, is not arbitrary or capricious, and reflects what a reasonably prudent person might do.

Not arguing with your logic or the basic idea that an instructor should be able to say no.

But what happens when an instructor, using professional judgement, says no and the student walks over to another instructor and gets trained/certified?

 

[tridacna]

Not arguing with your logic or the basic idea that an instructor should be able to say no.

But what happens when an instructor, using professional judgement, says no and the student walks over to another instructor and gets trained/certified?

What happens is that the student gets certified. What are you suggesting?