Yes/No requirement for Med form

[yle]

That situation isn't helped by people going on here about how they'll make their own decisions about whether someone else is medically fit to dive, when they aren't qualified to make those decisions. For example, T1D isn't epilepsy, and someone with hypoglycemia isn't likely to manifest that by suddenly and unexpectedly convulsing. Responsible T1Ds following DAN guidelines can dive. I suppose the concern for instructors is whether a given person is responsible, because some certainly are not, and no one wants to have to recover the body of a foolish person.

You're touching on something important here: it's not just about whether or not a doctor believes a student's medical condition is compatible with diving. It's a combination of the medical issue, how responsibly the student handles it, and how well the student and instructor communicate so the instructor feels that the medical condition will not create an unnecessary risk.

I've had one student, several years ago, that was Type 1 diabetic. He was 19 or 20, and he brought me a signed medical form. We discussed all the details of the situation, and his parents joined the discussion. We made a plan A, plan B, plan C for the unlikely event that anything should go sideways with his blood sugar while underwater. We spent a day on a dive boat and he made a plan beforehand, which he shared with me, on when and how he'd check his his blood sugar over the course of the day. Overall, he was 10 out of 10 when it came to the "responsibility" factor.

And of course there were no problems. He even came back for his AOW course a few months later.

 

[Colliam7]

I used the amputee example for convenience, and specifically to avoid clouding the discussion by raising the issue of student divers whose condition might 'disqualify them from being able to dive under the Open Water Diver standards'. (Perhaps my use of HSA as an example was the issue). Such disqualification is not the case with diabetic divers. Nonetheless, amputees may benefit from working with an instructor who has the training to adapt certain teaching techniques to their different abilities. And, conversely, other instructors without such training, or experience, may decline to work with them - not to stigmatize them, but as an honest admission of lack of experience.

I know and work professionally with 'otherwise healthy' (admittedly, a certain contradiction in terms), well-controlled Type 1 diabetics. I would have no individual issue working with them as a scuba instructor (providing they have a physician-signed medical). But, as a health care professional I also have certain benefit of knowledge that not every scuba instructor may have. I have absolutely no criticism to apply to another instructor who might decline to work with them, and suggest they find another instructor.

 

[martincohn]

Wow some great discussions. I'm not taking sides but just pointing out some inconvenient truths...

• Anyone can check "no" and I'm sure lot of people do that could check yes. Just look at this thread for the reasons.
• If they check "yes" and get a MD sign off you bet an instructor can still refuse to take them on as a student.
• If you refuse to teach them for no other reason than they checked "yes" (and they have the MD sign off) the student might have some recourse (depending on the laws where you are).
• If you get sued by a potential student you refused and it goes to court I'd be willing to put $$ on the table that those "peers" in the jury box won't all be dive instructors, or even divers.
• Yup it's your business and you can make that call. But then remember that baker said the exact same thing.

 

[lowflyer]

I think what you really mean is that if instructors can refuse to take a student because of a medical condition, then a student should have the complementary right to refuse to take a course with an instructor that has a medical condition.

And in a sense they do: there's nothing stopping a student from inquiring of a prospective instructor about their medical fitness. If the instructor refuses to answer, or provide documentation, the student can reject the instructor. All students have this right, they just rarely exercise it. Just as the vast majority of instructors have no problem accepting a student with a signed medical statement.

Yes.

And I agree that any instructor can refuse any student for whatever reason.

I think the point of my original post was that it's ironic that there are instructors with medical risk factors who won't train a student with a medical issue no more risky than the instructor's. Which is potentially a more serious problem: an instructor who goes unconscious at depth with a bunch of students or a single student coding with a fit instructor?

 

[The Chairman]

The biggest issue I have with any of these medical forms is honesty. If a student tries to deceive me, then there's no way I can train them. Early on, I had a potential student with an ear issue who had gotten a medical clearance. I asked if they had called DAN and they had not. I then asked them to talk to DAN and make a decision. Since this was a minor, I explained to the parents that Scuba was optional in their kid's life and that my concern was not about my liability, but their child's health. After their discussion with DAN, they withdrew their child from classes.

I can't remember the exact condition, but I remember being surprised that any doctor would approve them for diving. I'm not a phusician, though I once was a NetDoc. It's not that I don't trust doctors, but I really don't. I don't need to enable bad doctors to hurt their patients. There's a number of great doctors, but too many act like they know it all, when they don't. If something doesn't seem right to me as an instructor, it's my duty to point it out. Diving, like any activity is the individual's decision. Instructing is the same.

 

[NAM001]

I don't think you'll find one. The standards only say if there is a YES answer, then a doctor's clearance is needed. There is no standard in the Manual or in 24 years of Training Bulletins that says all (or any, actually) of the questions must be answered, only that a YES answer requires a clearance. So if a student hands me a signed medical, none of the questions are relevant.

Isnt that a play on words? Isnt it implied by the fact that you were given a information question sheet. Does the standards allow an instructor to accept someone that turns in a incomplete sheet with a sig on it. When given a sheet of 10 questions the natural conclusion is that it requires 10 answers to be submitted...

So if the question aire saiid,, ( below) would the person be allowed to submit the form and take the class since no Yes's were found? Im not trying to bait you but the example below does not have any Yes answers. I understand if they say no to everything, because you are not a med guy and can not verify any of the answers,, but I would expect that you would have to have a complete health form whether it is true of false. If that is the case then the student that wants privacy could answer no to every question and the instructor would be off the hook completely because he continued with training based on trust that the info provided being the truth. None of my classes i ever took allowed a non answered question on a health form. Of course that nay have been the instructor and not the organization refusing the form.

age younger than 14 N
history of diabetic related problems
history of heart problems
history of lung lung problems
less than 4 foot tall N
any limiting physical factors N

 

[NAM001]

I accept a signed medical in replacement to the yes/no form. I'm not a doctor to question it and the details aren't my business anyway.

Haven't read anything that suggests I'm painting a liability bull's-eye on me for doing it that way.

For what it's worth,
Cameron

I have seen that happen also

 

[NAM001]

The question in this thread was what are the PADI standards, not what the form says. Even so, there is no personal medical information in the signature, so why would it be even an issue to sign it?

If a signatuer meant nothing then why would it be on every financial statement you make for a loan. YES the signature is needed. It is the last thing you fill in saying the form is complete and ready for submission.

 

[NAM001]

Is that not the form used by PADI and as such makes it part of their standards? True though that if they sign the form without completing it, it would seem to release PADI from said omissions.

My interpretation of this is that you have to complete the full form and that ommssions relate to things such as comments or explainations. Exa,[;e. Have you ever been required to be in a barometric chamber. Scuba wise I would say no but truthfully I would say yes and the exlaination woud be it was a physical testing device for submarine duty screening. If I ommitted that I took part in a testing program using a chamber for some classified operation, that would be the ommision that would be covered by the ommisions statement. Or have I ever been tested for XYZ I would say no even if i had been,,,, but was done not for my benefit but to provide a geneological health history for someone else.

 

[jlcnuke]

nevermind