Yes/No requirement for Med form

[tridacna]

I'm the OP and this thread addresses new students.

1. No student ever brings up partial pressure of oxygen issues when going to see their doctor to get a medical clearance. I don't care how well you teach. In our case, they're students and have never had any training. Do you accept and let students get into the water prior to a medical?

2. Yes older divers have more events. Aging divers are also generally not new students. They are unlikely to have to complete a RSTC medical form.

3. Finding a suitably qualified diving physician is almost impossible in the NY/NJ area. I don't know about the rest of the USA but DAN has been of NO use helping finding same. Some of their recommendations have been awful.

4. I doubt that any doctor actually reads the 4 or 5 page blurb that's part of the form. I had a student with a history of regular blackouts coming back with a signed form. I called the doctor who retracted his OK. His PA had rubber stamped and signed the form. We could discuss just this incident for a while. If we had accepted that student, we would have been OK according to standards.

 

[Diver0001]

I'm the OP and this thread addresses new students.

1. No student ever brings up partial pressure of oxygen issues when going to see their doctor to get a medical clearance. I don't care how well you teach. In our case, they're students and have never had any training. Do you accept and let students get into the water prior to a medical?

If they answer NO to all of the questions on the WRSTC form we do, even if they lie. However, if we suspect they are lying then we still send them to a diving specialized doctor to be cleared. You're correct to point out that they are not in a position to ask about partial pressure issues when they commence OW training because they are obviously unaware of those kinds of things at that point.

3. Finding a suitably qualified diving physician is almost impossible in the NY/NJ area. I don't know about the rest of the USA but DAN has been of NO use helping finding same. Some of their recommendations have been awful.

I don't think I can make a comment about this without it becoming a commentary of American politics. The fact that the richest country in the world can't seem to provide adequate medical care to its citizens can only invite commentary that will get this post removed. We can't go down that road. What I *can* say is that in large areas of the world, this is not a problem.

4. I doubt that any doctor actually reads the 4 or 5 page blurb that's part of the form. I had a student with a history of regular blackouts coming back with a signed form. I called the doctor who retracted his OK. His PA had rubber stamped and signed the form. We could discuss just this incident for a while. If we had accepted that student, we would have been OK according to standards.

As an instructor you still have the final say. If someone is willing to be open with you about their medical history then you can always choose to "fail on the safe side".

In fact, this is what Pete said earlier in this thread. If a student isn't willing to disclose their medical history to him then he "fails on the safe side" and won't accept them as students.

Personally, I don't feel qualified to play "doctor" so I do accept a doctor's "all clear". You started this thread by asking if they still needed to fill in the yes/no form if they have a doctor's clearance, which is NO, they do not. The doctor's clearance is all you need for the dossier. After that you started questioning whether or not you, as a scuba instructor, should feel responsible for how the doctor did his/her job, ending with the suggestion that the doctor's clearance can't be trusted.

The answer to that is also, NO. You CAN, as a scuba instructor, assume that the doctor knows more about medicine than you do and that their clearance is valid. You are still under no obligation to train a given student if you still have doubts but that student's doctor is the only one in this little game with the qualifications to play "doctor". And that's what you have to understand here.

R...

 

[Superlyte27]

This all boils down to CYA as an instructor. Ultimately, if a doctor signed off, you're likely in the clear. But if I deny a student class, I'm CERTAINLY in the clear.

 

[Diver0001]

This all boils down to CYA as an instructor. Ultimately, if a doctor signed off, you're likely in the clear. But if I deny a student class, I'm CERTAINLY in the clear.

If a doctor signs off then you are legally in the clear (unless, of course, you are a doctor and should have "known better"). However being legally in the clear isn't enough for most scuba instructors. An instructor's DNA is hard wired to minimize risk to some number approaching zero. The LAST thing anyone of us wants is an accident on our conscience, so we all think in terms of limitations.

In that sense I understand the OP. A doctor may be more inclined to view the world in terms of "possibilities" as opposed to "limitations". If that were not the case than doctors would need to tell ALL of their patients to go home, lock themselves up and wait to die.

R..

 

[tridacna]

Some years back, we had a 18 yr old student that while filling in his form, whispered something to his friend about "Do you think that epilepsy is a problem"? At least I thought I that I heard that. They both had all NO answers. They both completed first day of confined pool OK.

That night, his mother left a VM that her son would not be able to make day two because he had "blacked out'and bumped his head that night at home and was not feeling well enough to dive the next day. Could we reschedule? We called his mom; She confirmed that he had a history of "black-outs". We refunded his money and told her that he should find another hobby. Explained why in a nice way of course.

 

[NAM001]

It seems to be that the agencies are not looking for the extent of problems with students. they are looking for reasons to teach them. To get that,,,, a COMPLETED med form is needed. The instructor reviews the med form and decides if further doctors clarification is necessary. The student like the instructor is not a doctor. IMO if I were an instructor,,, if the med form was not complete( even with UNKNOWN lies) I would not accept them. A student is going to an instructor to obtain a service for requested non essential training. This is not a DUI stop where you have rights to with hold information. If the instructor does not feel confident that the student is free from harm in the process of the training, the students APPLICATON should not be accepted. Try going to a blood bank and refusing to answer questions. Your request to donate will be denied in the name of public and personal safety.

 

[Diver0001]

If the instructor does not feel confident that the student is free from harm in the process of the training, the students APPLICATON should not be accepted.

This is already the case. No instructor is obligated to teach every student who comes in the door.

In addition to medical reasons there could be other very good reasons to not want to teach students. For example, I've turned customers away in the past who came without a swimming diploma (very rare in the Netherlands) and wanting to overcome their fear of water. I never accept students like this. I tell them that if they come back with a swimming diploma that I will reconsider.

This is not a medical issue but it is definitely an issue of safety that I need to consider as an instructor. Most instructors will tell you, "when in doubt, say no".

R..

 

[A. Boyette]

This is exactly why a good friend of mine no longer will turn in the form with a "yes" and a doctors signature, he simply puts "no" down on every question.

Likewise. I simply answer NO to everything. Done it thru 3 certs and 4 specialties over 14 years. The average flunky scuba instructor wouldn't know a Afib from athletes foot.

When Joe Blow instructor can show me a license to practice medicine issued by the state, then we can talk about his forms. Until then his job is to teach, not try to diagnose my medical problems or try to calculate my odds of having an medical issue like diabetes while diving.

Instructors like that are why people just go down the form and check "no".

Doctors don't teach scuba. So lets take the medical diagnosing off the scuba instructors table.

 

[TrimixToo]

<snip>
4. I doubt that any doctor actually reads the 4 or 5 page blurb that's part of the form. <snip>.

My doc actually stops and scans it every single year. I don't mind the few minutes it takes.

 

[uncfnp]

I doubt that any doctor actually reads the 4 or 5 page blurb that's part of the form.

Easy enough for PADI (etc) to cover themselves for this as well. Just add a line above the doctors signature stating that by their signature they have read and understand the attached guidelines. The law inforcement clearances I do has something similar. Gives one an added pause before signing.