Wrecks, new buddies and weak personalities...

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InTheDrink

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Minor kind of story but I'm interested nonetheless to hear what others might have done differently. Not sure if right thread as I haven't learned any lessons yet and don't know whether near miss or not. More I'd like to see if there are any lessons to be learned - and maybe not.

Scene
Was diving with an ex-uni friend who I'd never dived with before. He had done about 45 dives, to my 90 or so, so I felt we'd be fairly well matched. Both AOW. We were going from the UK to an Island in the mid Mediterranean.

Anyhow. On the check dive on the first day it became apparent that he could have done with a refesher course as he didn't look at ease in the water, was doggy paddling rather a lot etc. No biggie.

Next day storm broke and none of the 5 dives sites we visited were a go-er. Following day we went out to dive a couple of wrecks, about 32-40m. Which is about as deep as I've gone so I had a certain amount of apprehension, not being with my regulat buddy.

The party was thus:
Guides:
Freelance guide, erstwhile commercial/sat diver. Interesting chap.
Intern DM, had been diving for 2 months in total but was very competent for that amount of time.
Master Scuba diver and RAF pilot. about 23 but looked about 12. Lovely chap.

Us:
Me,
Friend
Guy doing deep diver course.

We went down and all seemed fine. Slight current. It seemed from our briefing that we'd be pentrating the wreck, which set off minor alarm bells with me: good way of dying, overhead env., not diving beyond your training etc.but I was already coming across like an old fogey for being totally gripped on the ride to the site (back of an old pick-up, in chaotic traffic, crap road, and at hair raising speeds. Well, to me at least, everyone else seemed fairly relaxed. I've turned into a nervous passengers since having kids. Plus - you weren't there :))

We got to the top of wreck, great vis, slight head current, 32m. I let everyone penetrate through a large hatch before I went in. I wanted to make sure I could see what was going on with my buddy (coming in and out) before I went in, even at the risk of separation. My buddy seemed ok, went in and came out, probably 5m further along. I went in and had a look around. It wasn't challenging (yes, I know they never are until they are). When I came out my buddy was waiting. I gave him the ok signal, fully expecting to see the same in return. But he signalled he wasn't ok. He indicated his heart was beating fast. At this point I held his hand to reassure him and signalled to the (nearly) DM we needed some assistance. I was fairly sure my buddy was narked. And from his constant doggy paddling I figured he was probably loaded up on CO2 too. Plus entering a wreck might have freaked him (I had, perhaps inadvisedly, told him prior to the dive that wreck penetration was potentially dangerous without the appropriate training - yet which I nevertheless consented too, weak person that I am).

The DM got him to stop finning, I thought to slow his heart rate. I signalled to my buddy what he wanted to do and suggested thumbing the dive. He indicated that he wasn't sure so I felt we should can it. Dive another day etc. I was worried by this time. He looked very uncomfortable. Then the confusing part. The guide and the DM appeared to indicated that we continue the dive and worse, proceed with the next penetration. I should have been stronger willed at this point, and I do think my judgement was poor. I should have pressed the issue. I thought we should ascend 5 or 7m at the very least to see if this would alleviate any issues of narcosis. This would have left us in open blue, rather than by the wreck as a comforting point of reference but we could have hung at the top of the mast. Anyhow, we stayed but didn't penetrate and my buddy hung on to a rail for 5 mins til his breathing got relatively normal. Finished the dive. No problems.

Next dive my buddy started doing somersaults at around 35m in an internal holding area near the bow of this wreck. Great, narked again and scaring the sh** out of me. I stopped enjoying the dive at this point and watched my buddy like a hawk and tried to reprimand him without scaring him.I didn't penetrate this wreck for fear of him following. Yes, I know I shouldn't have been going in myself as I haven't been trained. But people were pentrating the craziest holes, literally having to squeeze, wriggle and squish themselves through. Not cos of incompetence, just the holes were tiny. I wouldn't even have considered them penetrable. Anyhow, kinda pointless point but I got what I can only imagine was the dark narcs and was full of a sense of forboding, major forboding, and was glad when we headed north. I knew it was mostly narcosis but that wasn't particularly reassuring at the time. I've had this feeling before but hadn't twigged what it was. And it wasn't just that anyhow: I was quick becoming an un-fan of diving with my new buddy.

So that's how it all appeared at the time. After this dive my buddy spent a fair while vacating the contents of his stomach and said he had the worst headache he'd ever experienced.

After a few beers on the last day (and after a couple more dive moments where he had near panic at 25m+ depth requiring intervention from me/DM/MSD) it turns out that he hadn't actually done 45 dives. More like 25. And apart from one dive in Panama 2 months prior - whilst p**sed as a newt - hadn't dived for 4 years. It gets worse: because he hadn't seen any of the other divers put air in their BCs, he assumed it wasn't necessary (don't even ask!) and so was hideously negatively buoyant at depth (and even on the surface was wearing twice as much weight as me even though leaner build). So he was constantly fighting to stay up. It kind of shocked me that I was diving with someone that wasn't aware they should be adding air to their BC when going down. Advanced indeed. He also told me that he'd never before experienced the kind of fear he did during and after the wreck penetration and was seriously considering not diving again - ever again - after that. He did remarkably well I think under the circumstances. I realise now that the DM when getting him to not fin was also establishing whether he was buoyant or not and hence why he was adding air.

What's the lesson? Well, no one got hurt. I felt someone could have or maybe nearly did do. I'm also wondering am I a cissy. No-one else (apart from my buddy) seemed particularly shaken by events. Or let on like they were. I neglected to mention that I was 1 min from deco on the first dive and that my buddy didn't have a computer. The plan was for him to stay slightly above me at all times, which didn't happen. Others had deco obligations and apart from the guide, I don't believe any were trained for this (but I don't know for sure). God I sound petty.

I guess my question/thoughts are:

1. When does a penetration/overhead environment occur? When you go through a swim-through there's a momentary overhead env. but clearly that doesn't count. When does an overhang become a cavern/cave? When is entering a wreck penetration? Where's the line? I'm still not sure whether I broke the rules by penetrating the wreck or whether I'm just being overly cautious.

2. Calling a dive. What happens when you try to call a dive but the decision isn't accepted by the guide? FYI, my buddy also thought he was being asked to make a second wreck penetration by the guide as an alternative to my suggesting we call the dive. I did say afterwards to the team that when I suggested we call the dive that's what should have happened but this was refuted saying that wasn't the best course of action. I was concerned that taking my buddy up by myself could be more dangerous than staying with the pros

3. My buddy had visited my house a week before we went on our vacation. I had considered lending him my PADI OW book just so he could freshen up his memory/skills (the OW book is actually very useful once you've got more diving experience - shame you never really learn the skills properly on the course). However I thought it might offend him as he had 45 dives so I didn't suggest it. Bad call. Don't assume anything. I usually dive with a very cautious, safe and excellent DM and perhaps have got used to him looking after me. Didn't like it so much the other way round.

4. Weighting. I spent some time getting my weight correct. I like to have no air in my BCD at the end of a dive. Too much air in your BC (through over weighting) just makes life more complicated. I use 4kg (warm-ish water) usually and I rarely have to put air in or out of my BC and it makes life loads easier. On the first dive here they stuck 8kg on me and I found it a challenge to manage my buoyancy - something I don't have an issue with in general. For my buddy, who ended up wearing 10kg (where I finished with 5kg), this ended up a major challenge, not helped by not putting air into his BC and diving to 30m+. I do think that more time should be spent getting people correctly weighted, including allowing them to require more weight on their check dive if they've been out of the game for a while, which should be subtracted on subsequent dives. I think it makes people's dives much more pleasant correctly weghted. Usually they take one glance and say Xkg. I think this is a trick frequently missed by the ops.

Anyhow, like I said, no-one got hurt. I feel I failed my friend by not pushing harder for the dive to be called. I also feel he failed me by lying about his experience level. I feel the guide/DM could have been more co-operative but then, maybe this is par for the course and if they had to call every dive where someone had a mild panic they'd be doing 15 minute dives p**ssing off all the other customers....it is their profession after all and they do need to eat. I did a few dives without my buddy and it was bliss not having to worry. Also, I had another guide and her attitude was TOTALLY different to this guide - she was very thorough, cautious and by the book. Like I said to my buddy, this guide (the commercial chap) would be a great mentor, assuming he didn't kill you. Which seemed a large assumption.

I thought twice about posting this because there are lots of easy pot shots to take - please avoid and be constructive. Like I say, no-one was hurt and I am caught between wondering whether I'm too cautious a soul or not strong willed enough to force my (cautious) decisions through. I am about to start my Resuce Diver course.

Finally, apologies for the length of this post. I'm not very good at saying anything quikly/briefly/concisely/clearly. My wife can confrim this.
 
I thought twice about posting this because there are lots of easy pot shots to take - please avoid and be constructive. Like I say, no-one was hurt and I am caught between wondering whether I'm too cautious a soul or not strong willed enough to force my (cautious) decisions through. I am about to start my Resuce Diver course.

Finally, apologies for the length of this post. I'm not very good at saying anything quikly/briefly/concisely/clearly. My wife can confrim this.

JClynes: THANK YOU for sharing your experience. I have never been in your situation so I can't say what you should have done or what you could have done.

But, I am interested to hear from others regarding the DM / Guide's responsibility in this situation.

Is it common for a DM to not call a dive when a diver under their responsibility is diving/behaving uncomfortably? Was this a lack of safety on the part of the DM or charter organization?

What should the OP have done, gone to the surface or stayed against his better judgement?

JClynes, thanks again for sharing your story.
 
....snip....

1. When does a penetration/overhead environment occur? ....snip.... I'm still not sure whether I broke the rules by penetrating the wreck or whether I'm just being overly cautious.

Everyone has a different capacity for risk acceptance. You can never be "overly cautious". That term doesn't apply to diving because all you can do is listen to your inner voice or not. Your comfort zone is unique to you and you have every right to make your own judgement calls. Where people fail on this issue is to go well beyond their comfort zone for whatever reason. Most of the time they get away with it (like your friend did) but these things can....and DO.... get pear shaped, which can have extremely serious consequences. How far should you go? That's a judgement call but the judgement needs to be made with a clear head and the full understanding that if you don't want to do something nobody is going to make you. If you didn't feel comfortable swiming through then nobody would have thought worse of you for declining..... And even if they did then that says more about them then it does about you. I don't think this answer addresses your question head-on but I suspect it addresses the reason you asked the question.

2. Calling a dive. What happens when you try to call a dive but the decision isn't accepted by the guide? ....snip....

Well, I wasn't there and it sounds like you might have had a little miscommunication but it would seem very unusal for a guide to not accept you wanting to thumb the dive. If that was really the case then you could have shown him your middle finger instead of your thumb and aborted the dive on your own initiative. If you want to abort a dive then you abort it. It's possible that the DM would have to stay on the bottom for the other divers but he shouldn't have stopped you from aborting if you wanted to.

3. My buddy had visited my house a week before we went on our vacation. ....snip.... Don't assume anything. ....snip....
Open and frank communication is the best way to avoid the problems you had. I would submit that interpersonal social/communication skills are keys to avoiding problems every bit as much as raw diving skill and experience. Insofar that you don't have loads of diving experience yet you can certainly compensate with good communication before hand. I would say work on that. To me it looks like the weak spot that much of what you said in your original post.

4. Weighting. ...snip... I think this is a trick frequently missed by the ops.
I think the operators all know this but guided dives is production-line work and many times they cut corners for speed. The only really good way to deal with this on a diving vacation is to go out on your own the day before the dive and make an easy shore dive and get all your equipment issues sorted before the guided diving starts. If you had done that you might have had a relaxed atmosphere to talk to your buddy about the things you saw him doing (paddling) etc. before you had to deal with him in a highly anxious state in 32 metres of water.

Anyhow, like I said, no-one got hurt. I feel I failed my friend by not pushing harder for the dive to be called. ....snip.....

your friend was there too and he has his own responsibility in this. Talk to him and do a good post-mortum of the trip. If you don't you'll probably never dive with him again.

good luck.

R..
 
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JClynes - I too want to thank you for posting... personally I'm a diving rookie and I swear sometimes I think I'm the only cautious one around! (I know this isn't true and no disrespect intended but I look at those who I took my course with and who have around the same number of dives, and it seems I'm the only one who questions their abilities even remotely).

I've learned so much from this 'Incidents & Accidents' thread and I thought your post was really well stated and certainly without any of the potshots you alluded to.

I had a bad dive yesterday that has pretty much shattered my confidence but after a huge pep talk from my dive buddy I've decided to forge on and take it slow and at my own pace. I think your friend was lucky to have you there and sticking with him - thanks for sharing the experience.
 
Very good advice about not exceeding your own comfort envelope...
 
I'm sure you'll get more answers than you ever wanted, but I can't resist adding my two cents. :cool:

1. When does a penetration/overhead environment occur? When you go through a swim-through there's a momentary overhead env. but clearly that doesn't count. When does an overhang become a cavern/cave? When is entering a wreck penetration? Where's the line? I'm still not sure whether I broke the rules by penetrating the wreck or whether I'm just being overly cautious.

An overhead is anyplace you can't do a direct vertical ascent to the surface.

Even a swim-through can be a problem. If it's single file and the person in front of you stops, and there's someone behind you, you're pretty much screwed if anything happens.

2. Calling a dive. What happens when you try to call a dive but the decision isn't accepted by the guide?

This is incredibly common. If you show your thumb to the DM and get anything but an OK and an ascent, the correct response is to extend your middle finger, grab your buddy and do the ascent anyway.

Even if asked as a question, a thumb is almost never really a question. It shows that the person with the thumb wants to end the dive. Nobody flips a thumb if they're having a great time and everything is OK.

Anyhow, like I said, no-one got hurt. I feel I failed my friend by not pushing harder for the dive to be called. I also feel he failed me by lying about his experience level. I feel the guide/DM could have been more co-operative but then, maybe this is par for the course and if they had to call every dive where someone had a mild panic they'd be doing 15 minute dives p**ssing off all the other customers....i
That's really not your problem. If they're getting paniced divers every day it just means they're not properly describing the dive and screening the customers. While the DM may or may not be legally responsible for your safety depending on the laws of your country and the contract/agreement for the dive, the only person who really looks out for you is you.

Also, nobody should be doing penetrations (even little penetrations) without the right training and equipment and a similarly trained buddy that you've dived with before and know. The only possible exception might be a wreck that has been "sanitized" and has no possible way of trapping anybody. Some freighters, for example, have the huge cargo hatches removed.

Terry
 
1. When does a penetration/overhead environment occur? When you go through a swim-through there's a momentary overhead env. but clearly that doesn't count. When does an overhang become a cavern/cave? When is entering a wreck penetration? Where's the line? I'm still not sure whether I broke the rules by penetrating the wreck or whether I'm just being overly cautious.

I define it as anywhere I do not have a direct ascent to the surface so swim throughs count in my definition. I have done wreck penetration before (I have no training in this area), and I would do it again but only on that particular wreck (or potentially others that are similar and that I feel safe in penetrating - there is no chance of silting, big open space, not very long, lots of large exits and entries, nothing to entangle on, etc) because it is in my comfort zone. There are no 'rules' as such, no scuba police so it is pretty much up to the diver and their buddy/ies to decide on what they are comfortable with, once they know all the risks.

2. Calling a dive. What happens when you try to call a dive but the decision isn't accepted by the guide? FYI, my buddy also thought he was being asked to make a second wreck penetration by the guide as an alternative to my suggesting we call the dive. I did say afterwards to the team that when I suggested we call the dive that's what should have happened but this was refuted saying that wasn't the best course of action. I was concerned that taking my buddy up by myself could be more dangerous than staying with the pros

Ignore them and ascend with your buddy if you have one is what I would do. If your buddy disagrees, well I personally would keep insisting on ascending and if they ignored still, I would stay with them until I reached my gas turnaround point, then I would ascend alone.

3. My buddy had visited my house a week before we went on our vacation. I had considered lending him my PADI OW book just so he could freshen up his memory/skills (the OW book is actually very useful once you've got more diving experience - shame you never really learn the skills properly on the course). However I thought it might offend him as he had 45 dives so I didn't suggest it. Bad call. Don't assume anything. I usually dive with a very cautious, safe and excellent DM and perhaps have got used to him looking after me. Didn't like it so much the other way round.

It is a good idea to learn self-reliance so perhaps ask your DM that you dive with to let you do all the dive planning and leading. This will make you more confident to do so on your own. With dive buddies, they can lie about their experience and it will become obvious only after they have dived with you really. If I was in your shoes I would not have dived with this person again. I can understand why you did though as I have dived again with someone I had serious misgivings about (that didn't go well, what a surprise!) and it is an awkward thing to stop diving with someone but I am jack of crap buddies now so have much less tolerance for people who pull stupid stuff on a dive. It is very hard when one is new though, to call this as when you are new you aren't 100% confident in your own judgement about things. At least this is what I have found.

4. Weighting. I spent some time getting my weight correct. I like to have no air in my BCD at the end of a dive. Too much air in your BC (through over weighting) just makes life more complicated. I use 4kg (warm-ish water) usually and I rarely have to put air in or out of my BC and it makes life loads easier. On the first dive here they stuck 8kg on me and I found it a challenge to manage my buoyancy - something I don't have an issue with in general. For my buddy, who ended up wearing 10kg (where I finished with 5kg), this ended up a major challenge, not helped by not putting air into his BC and diving to 30m+. I do think that more time should be spent getting people correctly weighted, including allowing them to require more weight on their check dive if they've been out of the game for a while, which should be subtracted on subsequent dives. I think it makes people's dives much more pleasant correctly weghted. Usually they take one glance and say Xkg. I think this is a trick frequently missed by the ops.

Yes I agree about how you should spend more time working out your weight. However this is something I wouldn't leave up to a dive op to make the final decision on. A bit of advice sure, but if someone insisted I wore X amount of weight and I thought it was too much/too little I would ignore them and figure it out myself.

Anyhow, like I said, no-one got hurt. I feel I failed my friend by not pushing harder for the dive to be called. I also feel he failed me by lying about his experience level. I feel the guide/DM could have been more co-operative but then, maybe this is par for the course and if they had to call every dive where someone had a mild panic they'd be doing 15 minute dives p**ssing off all the other customers....it is their profession after all and they do need to eat. I did a few dives without my buddy and it was bliss not having to worry. Also, I had another guide and her attitude was TOTALLY different to this guide - she was very thorough, cautious and by the book. Like I said to my buddy, this guide (the commercial chap) would be a great mentor, assuming he didn't kill you. Which seemed a large assumption.

No one got hurt and you learned a lot, so don't beat yourself up too much. All people make mistakes and the only problem is when they do not learn from it. Enjoy your Rescue class, it is a very worthwhile course!
 
I would say you posted in the correct forum! This could be considered near miss and lessons learned. If something unexpected had happened to your buddy during his minor panic (mask leaking) sounds likely that he would have full blown panicked... And what if he was having heart trouble? I have also had times where a dive was thumbed but DM insisted everyone stay. We all agree you should have ended the dive but it is hard to make that call when the professionals say otherwise. All I can say is we put too much trust in DMs!!! There are many self serving, egocentric, dangerous DMs out there - unfortunately.
Thanks for sharing your experience! You can never be too causious and you sound like the type of buddy I like to dive with!
My suggestions:
Tell your buddy he needs a computer for his own safety
Thumb the dive when not comfortable
Get overhead training if u want to do penetrations - look for an article on silting on a wreck on this board - make u think twice
Most important - don't do anything your not comfortable with - its your safety
Thanks again for sharing.
 
Thanks for the useful posts.

Diver0001: Good advice about trusting one's instincts. That can be hard when you're relatively new to something and you second guess your own judgement. That inner voice is there for a reason I guess. I note that a diver sadly died on a wreck near where we were the week after we were there, albeit a decidedly more dangerous wreck (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ac...reck-diver-found-dead-gozo-mediterranean.html). Hardly comparable but a fairly abrupt reminder of the danger of overhead environments.

Saspotato: Also sound advice about getting my DM buddy to allow me to plan. Easy to get too used to the senior party taking the lead the whole time. Especially as I'm lazy :)

I did consider suggesting to my buddy that he take a rain check on the remainder of the dives, but I'm glad I didn't. He said he learned more about diving on those 4 days than he ever had. I think this is a feature of vacation diving to an extent. It is more than feasible to always end up diving with other vaction divers at a similarly crap level. Learning opportunities are rare, progress slow, bad habits and practicses compounded. I certainly have benefited a lot from my regular buddy being a DM and possibly even more, these boards.

The only other time I thumbed a dive I was also snubbed by the guide. I went up anyway as my crappy rental BC was malfunctioning. That p**sed me off some. However, in this case my concern was that should my buddy have panicked, or the situation deteriorated, I wouldn't have been the best person to assist him. I think I will be better placed to deal with it appropriately next time, whether by finger or otherwise. And I'm sure had I propery pressed the issue this time someone would have accompanied us up, I just didn't express myself firmly enough.

Many thanks for the responses.
 
I think it can be very difficult to be sufficiently adamant about something underwater, especially when you are being overruled by someone who "outranks" you. I know that I have allowed myself to be persuaded at times, even when I knew I was right, and it has been a long road to making sure I'm convinced I'm wrong before I change what I'm doing.

I can imagine circumstances where a guide would strongly prefer that divers not terminate a dive where they are. If you're diving off an anchored boat in current, for example, and are trying to surface at the far end of the wreck, it could pose problems for diver retrieval. In that case, a guide might want to make sure you really needed to ascend right there before agreeing to it (as opposed to finding you were just tired or bored and wanted to go up). But if that was the case, it should have been discussed in the pre-dive briefing. And if a guide is going to veto my request to terminate the dive, there should be some kind of discussion where my REASON for wanting to terminate has been communicated. For example, you're setting people up for a really bad outcome if you insist that they stay underwater when they are terminating because they are low on gas.

Your buddy does sound like he was suffering from CO2 toxicity -- I've had a couple of bouts with this, and the pounding headache and nausea were exactly what I had. I think he was very much out of line to exaggerate his experience (and the recency of it) and he was showing poor judgment in pushing his personal limits. It sounds as though he is a friend of yours, and if so, I'm with Diver0001 . . . Have a pretty thorough talk with him about how unnerved and uncomfortable you were, being underwater with him clearly not being in good shape, and perhaps that approach will get around any defensiveness he may have.

As far as overhead environments go, any time you can't go straight up, you're in one. Small ones, where you can see the exit from the entrance and the space is clear of obstructions or silt, are pretty benign, and OW divers swim through them all the time. I can think of several rock arches I've seen in various places which are like that. Wrecks get a bit dicier, as they may have metal protrusions or cable or wire that can snag a diver, and the interiors tend to get silty. Prepared "wrecks" in quarries or dive parks have usually had a pretty thorough cleaning out to avoid those things, and can give the novice diver quite an erroneous impression of what penetrating wrecks can be like.

For what it's worth, I don't think you are overly cautious or a PITA. I think you are a careful, conservative diver who needs to realize at a gut level that it's OKAY to be a cautious and conservative diver, even if it annoys other people at times. I've had several experiences where the safety procedures I wanted got in other people's way, and I had a lovely teaching moment from a good friend, when he stopped a DM on a boat and said, "No, we aren't getting in the water until we have a plan and have done buddy checks." All over the world, there are people who have given up on those things, but it doesn't mean you have to. But you have to be prepared to stand your ground.
 

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