I need your opinion

[Edward3c]

Thank you for your clear words! Whats about that " if it happended in Malta " ? Is it in Malta something special ?

Malta, Belize, France and a few other countries have legislation governing recreational diving. To dive you need to comply with their laws. In parts of Thailand their are local laws, for example independent (not with a registered dive business) diving is illegal.

 

[BlueTrin]

I could literally run someone over with a forklift at work and while they absolutely wouldn't have to worry about the healthcare costs they would not get anything worth mentioning out of a potential law suit, just the way things work here.

I wouldn’t want to put that to the test, in the U.K. that could be very expensive.

Yes forklifts are pretty expensive here

 

[Chavodel8en]

Ahh ok now i got it. I mean at the Point where we buddied up i was totally fine with it since we were pretty in the same "experience" levels. But in February ill go to Sansibar and get some dives there. I will ask the buddy ill receive some questions about his experience and so on.

I am in the same boat as you, my wife doesnt dive, so I get buddied up w/ insta-buddies when Im on vacation. The advice to query your insta-buddy is a good one, but sometimes its hard to do so.

I've been buddied with some real disasters before (although none as bad as your experience). If you're feeling iffy about your buddy, and there's no way to change them, try to stick close to the DM/guide (assuming there is one) or other divers.

 

[Degenerate]

I wouldn’t want to put that to the test, in the U.K. that could be very expensive.

It would not be here unless you did it deliberately or if you were drunk or something like that.
Your employer would probably rack up a bit of fines here if the victim was employed but it would be a laughable amount compared to the damage caused.
Not saying I agree with how things work here but the whole culture of lawsuits really does not exist here at all, mostly because the injuries/after care is covered via taxes.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I mean if the try to buddy me up with someone that I did not agree to in the first place, like one op did, I am going to insist they pay me, comp the trip, or let me dive solo.
I try to only choose ops that allow the latter. Or I'll look for the most experienced individual on the boat and have a talk about being "same ocean buddies" and splash with them and then go our own ways.

 

[Klopo]

I am in the same boat as you, my wife doesnt dive, so I get buddied up w/ insta-buddies when Im on vacation. The advice to query your insta-buddy is a good one, but sometimes its hard to do so.

I've been buddied with some real disasters before (although none as bad as your experience). If you're feeling iffy about your buddy, and there's no way to change them, try to stick close to the DM/guide (assuming there is one) or other divers.

Yes, at this point I have 45 dives and I am currently on the SSI Deco Diver course. Also did Navi, Night, Deep, Nitrox. I already feel much more confident than I did back then. So if I'm in Zanzibar in February and I get a buddy who is unsafe or doesn't have much experience, I can keep an eye on him I think.

 

[boulderjohn]

My wife doesnt dive, so when i am on Vacation and go for a day or two diving i cant go with anyone i know. Or do i miss something there ?

I, too, am a single diver, and I have often dived in boats where buddies are required. I cannot even begin to estimate the number of times I have dived with people I don't know--it must be in the hundreds. If you are an experienced diver/professional, the people on the boat will generally try to hook you up with someone at your level. I have never seen the scenario` peole talk about where the experienced diver is matched with a beginner to help the beginner. A dive operator who did that regularly would be an idiot--losing return customers is not a good idea. I have met some very nice people that way.```

 

[SlugLife]

I have seen more than a few threads on this topic over the years with people saying that dive guides have no responsibility for their safety. The people writing this have always been non-professionals reporting their beliefs. In those threads I have seen several divemasters and dive shop operators write that in their experience, the dive guides are absolutely, positively expected to provide that assistance.

Then there is the question of what would happen in the courts. As an instructor, I was very clearly told that if I was in any way acting as a professional such that a diver believed he or she could depend on me, I could be held liable in an accident. This would obviously be true if I were accepting payment, but I was clearly told that if I even said something that implied that the diver could depend on me because of my status, I could be liable.

Legal concepts can be complex, and location specific. We may be drifting a little off topic getting into legal concepts.

I'm no lawyer, but IMO, there's a reasonable expectation that if you pay for a dive with a "dive master" (or "guide" as I call them), that this guide should render assistance if they notice a diver having trouble. I'd probably even say it's reasonable to expect some kind of dive-rescue training.

Not long ago, I would have said that as a dive buddy with no professional ranking, you have no concerns with the law whatsoever. There have been a couple of cases lately, specifically in Malta, where buddies have been prosecuted for failing to rescue someone. Both instances were overturned, though.

The dive-community overwhelmingly thought both cases were absurd. Myself, I considered it logically contradictory to suggest buddy-A was liable to successfully rescue buddy-B, but buddy-B wasn't liable to buddy-A for getting themselves in a situation where they needed rescue. So far, thankfully, that appears to be only Malta.

Thank you for your clear words! Whats about that " if it happended in Malta " ? Is it in Malta something special ?

There were 2 absurd legal cases out of Malta, where a diver died, and their buddy was charged with manslaughter (or a relative equivalent). The basic facts of both cases were essentially a the buddy was unable to perform a rescue or didn't know the buddy needed rescue. The buddy didn't do anything which caused or contributed the death. If I remember correctly, one was "Stephan Martian" and the other was "Castillo."

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Legal concepts can be complex, and location specific. We may be drifting a little off topic getting into legal concepts.

I'm no lawyer, but IMO, there's a reasonable expectation that if you pay for a dive with a "dive master" (or "guide" as I call them), that this guide should render assistance if they notice a diver having trouble. I'd probably even say it's reasonable to expect some kind of dive-rescue training.

The dive-community overwhelmingly thought both cases were absurd. Myself, I considered it logically contradictory to suggest buddy-A was liable to successfully rescue buddy-B, but buddy-B wasn't liable to buddy-A for getting themselves in a situation where they needed rescue. So far, thankfully, that appears to be only Malta.

There were 2 absurd legal cases out of Malta, where a diver died, and their buddy was charged with manslaughter (or a relative equivalent). The basic facts of both cases were essentially a the buddy was unable to perform a rescue or didn't know the buddy needed rescue. The buddy didn't do anything which caused or contributed the death. If I remember correctly, one was "Stephan Martian" and the other was "Castillo."

If you pay for a spot in a group dive led by a guide or dm, it is completely unreasonable to expect that guide to abdicate their responsibility to the group for one person. Sadly, many people are trained to believe that they will. In many instances the guide is not even a pro. Just someone with knowledge of the local sites. It is totally the responsibility of each diver to make arrangements for themselves in the event of a problem. Whether that's by selecting or somehow interviewing a prospective buddy, hiring a private dm, or learning to be self-sufficient. Too many people expect to have things handed to them or be baby sat.
That's a consequence of abbreviated training.
I would never expect a guide to leave the group to help me. Just as I would never believe that something couldn't happen to the guide and render them incapacitated.
To do that is just foolish. It is also unreasonable to expect anyone but the diver themselves to be responsible for their safety outside of a class setting.

 

[boulderjohn]

I would never expect a guide to leave the group to help me. Just as I would never believe that something couldn't happen to the guide and render them incapacitated.

And what would the DM be doing that he or she would have to stop doing for the group in order to save your life? Are you saying a DM will not respond to an OOA diver because of the need to show the location of a pipefish?

In other threads in which dive operators have participated, every single one that I have ever seen has said they expect DMs to be responsible for the safety of their divers. I especially remember Dave Dillehay, then owner of Aldora Divers in Cozumel, saying so with emphasis.

In the one criminal trial for a DM that I know of, the DM was found guilty for failing to share air with an OOA diver who died.