Wrecks, new buddies and weak personalities...

[openmindOW]

Thank you for sharing your story. This forum can help others to learn.

I am glad that you all returned safely to the boat.

Just to clarify the situation, I I'd like to ask just a few questions please:

1) What were the dive conditions like? Water temp? Visibility?

2) What kind of cylinders was your "team" using? Were you diving singles of doubles?

3) What gas or gases were you using?

5) Did you have stage bottles?

6) Did you have "Pony Bottles"?

7) Did your "team" deploy lines for the dive?

8) What kind of valves were on your tanks? If you were diving singles, were you using yoke or DIN valves?

A wreck penetration dive at 35 metres is dangerous.

This is just my opinion, but if you all were diving single aluminum 80s, then that was risky.

Thanks again for sharing your story.

 

[Walter]

Not sure if right thread as I haven't learned any lessons yet and don't know whether near miss or not.

I'm very sorry to hear that. I'm amazed that anyone could have that experience and not learn a couple thousand lessons.

More I'd like to see if there are any lessons to be learned - and maybe not.

Lots of lessons to learn from that cluster.

Was diving with an ex-uni friend who I'd never dived with before. He had done about 45 dives, to my 90 or so, so I felt we'd be fairly well matched. Both AOW. We were going from the UK to an Island in the mid Mediterranean.

Anyhow. On the check dive on the first day it became apparent that he could have done with a refesher course as he didn't look at ease in the water, was doggy paddling rather a lot etc. No biggie.

First lesson: If he was dog paddling, it's an indication that he's not ready to leave the pool. That's a very big deal, you you guys took him to 40 m? You should have refused to take him on the dives.

The party was thus:
Guides:
Freelance guide, erstwhile commercial/sat diver. Interesting chap.
Intern DM, had been diving for 2 months in total but was very competent for that amount of time.
Master Scuba diver and RAF pilot. about 23 but looked about 12. Lovely chap.

Us:
Me,
Friend
Guy doing deep diver course.

Second lesson: You had no instructors or DMs in the group. How was the guy going a deep diver course? Why are 3 of the divers designated as "guides?" They have no qualifications to act as guides. An intern is an intern, not a DM. He's in class. You have almost twice the experience needed to qualify for a Master Diver card, why would you look to the MSD as a leader? The commercial diver should have been competent to make the dives, but not necessarily competent to take care of any of the rest of the group, besides 6 divers is quite a few to be watching out for on a deep dive.

We went down and all seemed fine. Slight current. It seemed from our briefing that we'd be pentrating the wreck, which set off minor alarm bells with me: good way of dying, overhead env., not diving beyond your training etc.but I was already coming across like an old fogey for being totally gripped on the ride to the site

Third lesson: You had minor alarm bells going off while thinking this is a "good way to die?" Those bell should have been major and for good reason, you could have had several deaths on those dives. You were more afraid of how you would look than of dying? That's not rational.

I let everyone penetrate through a large hatch before I went in. I wanted to make sure I could see what was going on with my buddy (coming in and out) before I went in, even at the risk of separation.

Good plan especially with him churing up silt in the wreck with his dog paddling.

When I came out my buddy was waiting. I gave him the ok signal, fully expecting to see the same in return. But he signalled he wasn't ok. He indicated his heart was beating fast. At this point I held his hand to reassure him and signalled to the (nearly) DM we needed some assistance. I was fairly sure my buddy was narked. And from his constant doggy paddling I figured he was probably loaded up on CO2 too.

So far, fo good

Plus entering a wreck might have freaked him (I had, perhaps inadvisedly, told him prior to the dive that wreck penetration was potentially dangerous without the appropriate training - yet which I nevertheless consented too, weak person that I am).

Telling him about the dangers was one of the good things you did.

The DM got him to stop finning, I thought to slow his heart rate. I signalled to my buddy what he wanted to do and suggested thumbing the dive. He indicated that he wasn't sure so I felt we should can it. Dive another day etc. I was worried by this time. He looked very uncomfortable. Then the confusing part. The guide and the DM appeared to indicated that we continue the dive and worse, proceed with the next penetration.

First, he wasn't a DM. Second, you don't need anyone's permission to abort a dive. Your buddy needed to be at the surface, you should have taken him there.

I should have been stronger willed at this point, and I do think my judgement was poor. I should have pressed the issue.

There was no need to press the issue. You should have aborted the dive with your buddy.

I stopped enjoying the dive at this point and watched my buddy like a hawk and tried to reprimand him without scaring him.I didn't penetrate this wreck for fear of him following.

Good move, although you shouldn't have gone in even if you'd had an excellent buddy.

He did remarkably well I think under the circumstances.

Perhaps you should raise your standards a little. Not dying is not the same as doing well.

What's the lesson? Well, no one got hurt. I felt someone could have or maybe nearly did do.

That's your lesson? You can screw up terribly and life to tell the tale?

I'm also wondering am I a cissy.

Wonder no more. I wouldn't call you a sissy because you thought there were problems with these dives. OTOH, while I wouldn't call you a sissy, I'd think it because you didn't protest and refuse to participate in things you knew were wrong.

1. When does a penetration/overhead environment occur?

Any time there's anything over your head that prevents you from ascending directly to the surface.

When you go through a swim-through there's a momentary overhead env. but clearly that doesn't count.

Guess again.

When does an overhang become a cavern/cave?

Anytime there's natural material (rock/coral etc.) over your head that prevents you from ascending directly to the surface. The difference between cavern and cave varies. Generally, if you have natural light and are less than 100 ft from the entrance, you're in a cavern.

When is entering a wreck penetration? Where's the line? I'm still not sure whether I broke the rules by penetrating the wreck or whether I'm just being overly cautious.

When any part of the wreck isover your head and prevents you from ascending directly to the surface. You broke them.

2. Calling a dive. What happens when you try to call a dive but the decision isn't accepted by the guide?

The dive is over and you exit the water.

I was concerned that taking my buddy up by myself could be more dangerous than staying with the pros

My god, you've logged 90 dives, get out of hand holding mode. Besides, there were no pros on the dive.

3. My buddy had visited my house a week before we went on our vacation. I had considered lending him my PADI OW book just so he could freshen up his memory/skills (the OW book is actually very useful once you've got more diving experience - shame you never really learn the skills properly on the course).

You should be learning the skills properly or you shouldn't be passing the course.

4. Weighting. I spent some time getting my weight correct.

Good for you.

I do think that more time should be spent getting people correctly weighted, including allowing them to require more weight on their check dive if they've been out of the game for a while, which should be subtracted on subsequent dives. I think it makes people's dives much more pleasant correctly weghted. Usually they take one glance and say Xkg. I think this is a trick frequently missed by the ops.

It doesn't appear that you were dealing with a dive operator.

Anyhow, like I said, no-one got hurt. I feel I failed my friend by not pushing harder for the dive to be called. I also feel he failed me by lying about his experience level.

Right on both counts, but he should also have spoken up about not penetrating the wrecks.

I feel the guide/DM could have been more co-operative but then, maybe this is par for the course and if they had to call every dive where someone had a mild panic they'd be doing 15 minute dives p**ssing off all the other customers

Another lesson: Don't acceot uncertified guides.

....it is their profession after all and they do need to eat.

It's not their profession - none of them have the certifications to be guides.

 

[InTheDrink]

I'm very sorry to hear that. I'm amazed that anyone could have that experience and not learn a couple thousand lessons.

Rather than grapple with multi-quote, I'll stick my initials.

Lots of lessons to learn from that cluster.

JC: Agreed, I just wasn't sure which ones yet.

First lesson: If he was dog paddling, it's an indication that he's not ready to leave the pool. That's a very big deal, you you guys took him to 40 m? You should have refused to take him on the dives.

JC: Again, agreed. I wouldn't again in a similar situation.

Second lesson: You had no instructors or DMs in the group. How was the guy going a deep diver course? Why are 3 of the divers designated as "guides?" They have no qualifications to act as guides. An intern is an intern, not a DM. He's in class. You have almost twice the experience needed to qualify for a Master Diver card, why would you look to the MSD as a leader? The commercial diver should have been competent to make the dives, but not necessarily competent to take care of any of the rest of the group, besides 6 divers is quite a few to be watching out for on a deep dive.

JC: Sorry, I didn't explain that well. The commercial diver was an instructor that the dive op hired out as a guide on an ad-hoc basis.

Third lesson: You had minor alarm bells going off while thinking this is a "good way to die?" Those bell should have been major and for good reason, you could have had several deaths on those dives. You were more afraid of how you would look than of dying? That's not rational.

JC: Agreed. I succombed to peer pressure.

Good plan especially with him churing up silt in the wreck with his dog paddling.

JC: Well, I was going to be happier having an overall view of what was happening as I was concerned. If it was silted up I wasn't going to go in.


So far, fo good

JC: Yep

Telling him about the dangers was one of the good things you did.

JC: Yes, although it might have contributed to his anxiety - and whilst that should be the desired response, at the time it could have added to his stress.

First, he wasn't a DM. Second, you don't need anyone's permission to abort a dive. Your buddy needed to be at the surface, you should have taken him there.

JC: Well, I could have but I still feel it would have been better to really force the issue of calling the dive and having someone from the Op come with us. I'm am not Resuce certified and this didn't seem to be a good time to learn.

There was no need to press the issue. You should have aborted the dive with your buddy.

JC: See above.

Good move, although you shouldn't have gone in even if you'd had an excellent buddy.

JC: Agreed, peer pressure. I'll get the training.

Perhaps you should raise your standards a little. Not dying is not the same as doing well.

JC: Agreed, but I'd say my friend did well not to die.

That's your lesson? You can screw up terribly and life to tell the tale?

JC: Nope, as mentioned earlier, I'm in the process of working out what the lessons are - and your post is one of several that are helping in the process.

Wonder no more. I wouldn't call you a sissy because you thought there were problems with these dives. OTOH, while I wouldn't call you a sissy, I'd think it because you didn't protest and refuse to participate in things you knew were wrong.

JC: Agreed.

Any time there's anything over your head that prevents you from ascending directly to the surface.

JC: Subjective, no? I think TSandM describes scenarios that wouldn't sensibly be considered overhead environments, such as small swim throughs not requiring single file. She also mentions 'prepared wrecks'. Maybe this was a prepared wreck? I don't know. Doubt it tho. Ultimately pack mentality took hold.

Guess again.



Anytime there's natural material (rock/coral etc.) over your head that prevents you from ascending directly to the surface. The difference between cavern and cave varies. Generally, if you have natural light and are less than 100 ft from the entrance, you're in a cavern.

When is entering a wreck penetration? Where's the line? I'm still not sure whether I broke the rules by penetrating the wreck or whether I'm just being overly cautious.

When any part of the wreck isover your head and prevents you from ascending directly to the surface. You broke them.

JC: Agreed.

The dive is over and you exit the water.



My god, you've logged 90 dives, get out of hand holding mode. Besides, there were no pros on the dive.

JC: See my comment ref: learning rescue on the fly. Or the potential to.

You should be learning the skills properly or you shouldn't be passing the course.

JC: Very much agreed. But that's not how it always is. It's only since joining this board that I realised I didn't know how to dive. Now at least I know that I don't know and I practise most weeks.

JC: Damn, even the simple quoting thing isn't working. I won't even tell you what my profession is. Will try second half in separate post and see how that goes

 

[InTheDrink]

OpenmindOW, answers inserted....

1) What were the dive conditions like? Water temp? Visibility?
Benign. 30m vis. 23C. Slight head current.

2) What kind of cylinders was your "team" using? Were you diving singles of doubles?
12L steel. My friend was using 15L.

3) What gas or gases were you using?
Air

5) Did you have stage bottles?
No

6) Did you have "Pony Bottles"?
No

7) Did your "team" deploy lines for the dive?
No

8) What kind of valves were on your tanks? If you were diving singles, were you using yoke or DIN valves?
DIN


A wreck penetration dive at 35 metres is dangerous.
Clearly!

 

[Doc Intrepid]

This is a simple rule of thumb that may come in handy in the future:

"Any diver can thumb (end) any dive, anywhere, at any time, for any reason".

Never be concerned about thumbing a dive, even for the faintest of reasons. "Anxiety" is a perfectly good reason. So is a vague feeling that something is not right.

Most diving incidents are not single point failures, but are rather a series of very small issues that compound over time. The issues, both physical as well as psychological, are cumulative. Thus, very small issues rationalized away become substantial incidents.

Throw a thumb when you first have the feeling that something is not right. You can straighten things out on the surface. Don't wait until what you thought might be occurring suddenly manifests itself as undeniably occurring.

Never worry about throwing the thumb early. There will always be another dive, another day.

If you don't learn any other lesson from this situation, learn this one.

There is another that you may also want to ponder, as this fiasco occurred over several days: "Once a diver has demonstrated themselves beyond any doubt to be a dangerous diver, do not dive with them".

Do not dive with dangerous divers. No exceptions, friends included.

They are not only a danger to themselves. If you needed assistance, in the gravest extreme, it is questionable whether they would be able to provide it. Very few protocols in life are rigid, but if you are going to safely assume elevated risks in the avocations you pursue, you must learn to recognize those protocols that are. Avoiding risks you do not need to take are at the top of that list.

Regards,

Doc

 

[InTheDrink]

TSandM/Diver0001 - I have chatted with my friend and tried to strike the balance between been too judgemental and suitably stern. He doesn't do fear. Or rather didn't. This was his first time. Hope he remembers it. I'll certainly be checking his log book before I go with him again, assuming I do. Which is probably unlikely.

I haven't mentioned to him yet my errors of judgement but I will in the next few days. Ultimately I failed him by being selfish. I should have said after the check dive that we would do simple, shallow dives for the remainder of the holiday as he clearly hadn't got the basics of the basics. My bad.

BTW, I always do buddy checks. In general I don't care if people think I'm a cissy. Don't know why on this occasion I did. I did ask them did and where the first aid O2 was and they were wondering why I thought I'd need it.

Glad to know that someone, somewhere, mightn't find me a PITA

J

 

[sea nmf]

You know, recently I went on a dive with a "club" and the conditions were very rough. This was my first time on this particular boat. I had a minor equipment problem during the dive and ended the dive very quickly. The dive club leader appeared to be annoyed, as he felt he had to accompany me to the surface. Read that as "appeared". I could have imagined it.

Boarding the boat in those conditions was quite difficult. I handed my fins up (mistake) and then was *almost* ripped from the ladder by the waves. After struggling to get onboard using this poor ladder, I decided to sit out the next dive.

I left my buddy with the rest of the group (she knew and understood) so she could continue to enjoy the dive. Upon her return, I told her I was skipping the next dive. She was fine with that and buddied with someone else.

The club leader came at me after everyone was suited up (I had my wetsuit down to my waist) and said, emphatically, "J is ready to go! Why aren't you suited up?" I told him I was sitting this one out and that J was aware and made other plans. He just looked at me and walked away. A few minutes later, he came back, stopped in front of me, and said "You're just not diving?" I said "Yes, I'm just not diving".

Clearly, this guy, who was not my buddy, wanted an explanation. He is an instructor and yet seemed to think that calling the dive for any reason was not good enough.

I was not intimidated by this guy, though. You should be able to call a dive for any reason and I intend to continue to do that.

 

[InTheDrink]

Doc Intrepid, there's a few things I'll take away from this experience, calling a dive firmly being one.

This is a simple rule of thumb that may come in handy in the future:

"Any diver can thumb (end) any dive, anywhere, at any time, for any reason".

Never be concerned about thumbing a dive, even for the faintest of reasons. "Anxiety" is a perfectly good reason. So is a vague feeling that something is not right.

JC: Agreed, and I knew deep down at the time I should have conclusively made the call . I was surprised that the op people weren't more receptive. They were clearly concerned about my buddy's panic/near panic, but not enough evidently to agree with the dive being called. When I asked about this later with one of the guys, he shrugged and said, 'No, of course continue to dive and it will pass'. I did say to him, 'yeah, and what if he had full blown panicked' and he said, 'well in that situation there's nothing you can really do for them bar dropping their weights, inflating their BC...' which I thought was staggering. Avoiding getting into a situation where guaranteed injury/fatality was a likely outcome seemed like a more sensible course of action. In fairness, this was the MSD and not the (nearly) DM or Instructor.

Most diving incidents are not single point failures, but are rather a series of very small issues that compound over time. The issues, both physical as well as psychological, are cumulative. Thus, very small issues rationalized away become substantial incidents.

JC: Yeah, I've noticed that part in the past. My regulator only failed once I was in the most ripping current I've ever experienced. I'm glad the conditions on this day were benign, I don't think it would have been quite so much fun (insert irony) with added current or low vis.

 

[openmindOW]

JCLynes, thank you again for your post. Hopefully, other divers will learn from reading about your experience.

You sound like a thoughtful and conscientious diver. Yes, mistakes were made. But you are learning from them and you have obviously reflected on what happened. That is to your credit.

I won't go into the details. A group of divers penetrated a wreck at 35 metres, on air, and without deplaying lines. That dive could have ended very badly.

One basic rule: Any member of a dive time can call a dive for any reason.

Thank you again, JCLynes.

 

[InTheDrink]

Thanks openmindOW, appreciate your, erm, openmindedness on this. It is instructive to get considered, intelligent opinions on what should, and could, have happened (including Walter's). I would hope that in a future scenario similar to this I would act more assertively and trust my gut feelings.

FYI, or perhaps more so FWI (for Walter's information), I tried to downplay the event because I didn't want to seem like a drama queen. You get such different perspectives in Scuba, from one day and one person, to the next, that evaluating what is and isn't the correct response to a situation is complex as a relative novice. And standing up to those with more experience is again, not always as easy as it sounds. But necessary nonetheless, and I guess that's what I'm learning.

Thanks again for all responses, it genuinely has advanced my ability to play this scene out better next time.

Cheers,
John