Wreck Diving "certification"

[Pulmcc]

Thinking of going to Key Largo in a couple of months and diving at least the Spiegel Grove and Duane. We have dove the Kittiwake and C53 In Grand Cayman and Cozumel including penetration with a guide without any issues. I don't think you can penetrate the Spiegel Grove without a certification so should we pursue that for future dives? I know that SSI has a standard Wreck Diving specialty as well as an Extended Range Wreck specialty. We have done just over 50 dives and have our Deep, Nitrox, and AOW so just exploring the outside of wrecks in Key Largo shouldn't be a problem.

 

[boulderjohn]

You have to be careful using the word "penetration." I discovered in a discussion with PADI that when they used that word, they were referring to entering the wreck at a point and returning to that point for the exit. Entering at one point and exiting at another is a swim-through, and (at least at that time), it was not even mentioned in the course. I don't know how it works with other agencies, but the last time I was on the Spiegel Grove, that was essentially the difference in how you could enter the wreck..

The Spiegel Grove has on each side a long row of cabins. Each one of them has a whole cut through the hull as well as an entrance door and an exit door. That means that if you enter a room, you have two exits in clear sight, one to the next room and the other to the open ocean. Those are swim-throughs. You can go through the entire side of the ship that way.

Then there are the serious penetrations, and for those you need to have proper training, a proper reel, and a proper amount of gas. Most operators won't let you do those penetrations without the training and equipment.

 

[SmashMonkey]

Thinking of going to Key Largo in a couple of months and diving at least the Spiegel Grove and Duane. We have dove the Kittiwake and C53 In Grand Cayman and Cozumel including penetration with a guide without any issues. I don't think you can penetrate the Spiegel Grove without a certification so should we pursue that for future dives? I know that SSI has a standard Wreck Diving specialty as well as an Extended Range Wreck specialty. We have done just over 50 dives and have our Deep, Nitrox, and AOW so just exploring the outside of wrecks in Key Largo shouldn't be a problem.

I love both those wrecks. Definitely bring dive lights; reels and wreck cert are not a prerequisite. The Spiegel Grove is really big and lots to see. There's big fish and small fish and the superstructure is fun to swim through. The Duane is smaller and not always diveable but when it is, the payoff is lots of schooling fish (barracuda, trevally, permit etc.) and and some of the most colorful and vibrant coral and sponges in Key Largo. Both are artificial reefs and the tops start at around 70 ft / 20 m down to the sand around 140 ft / 42 m. They have been cleaned up and cut out so there are many large swim through penetrations suitable for rec divers. I recommend nitrox for max NDL. With AOW you can dive your own profiles and swim through in the superstructures. If it's your first time I recommend hiring a guide make the best use of your time and tour all the best parts and to safely explore the longer deeper passages. Lots of videos of both wrecks on YT. I would recommend diving with Horizon Divers and hiring their guides. They are the only tech shop in the Keys and they teach all levels of wreck diving. Their DMs and instructors are all very experienced on both wrecks and they run deep charters and stay on the wreck so you get 2 deep dives on it instead of a shallow reef dive after the SI. If there is enough demand, they run deep wreck charters both AM and PM.

 

[growcurlyhair]

You have to be careful using the word "penetration." I discovered in a discussion with PADI that when they used that word, they were referring to entering the wreck at a point and returning to that point for the exit. Entering at one point and exiting at another is a swim-through, and (at least at that time), it was not even mentioned in the course. I don't know how it works with other agencies, but the last time I was on the Spiegel Grove, that was essentially the difference in how you could enter the wreck..

The Spiegel Grove has on each side a long row of cabins. Each one of them has a whole cut through the hull as well as an entrance door and an exit door. That means that if you enter a room, you have two exits in clear sight, one to the next room and the other to the open ocean. Those are swim-throughs. You can go through the entire side of the ship that way.

Then there are the serious penetrations, and for those you need to have proper training, a proper reel, and a proper amount of gas. Most operators won't let you do those penetrations without the training and equipment.

Yeah this bothers me quite a bit actually

I just did a dive at 24-33m at this place called Boga Wreck in Tulamben, Bali, where it was a "swim-through" and not a "penetration" after seeing your post.

We couldn't see the end of the swim through when going through the entrance at 24m (which eventually opened up at a 33m exit, the swim-through was diagonal, sloping down.

We weren't trained for something like that and actually i did bump the back of my tank.

It bothered me quite a lot that the DM encouraged us to do it.

 

[noserider]

Yeah this bothers me quite a bit actually

I just did a dive at 24-33m at this place called Boga Wreck in Tulamben, Bali, where it was a "swim-through" and not a "penetration" after seeing your post.

We couldn't see the end of the swim through when going through the entrance at 24m (which eventually opened up at a 33m exit, the swim-through was diagonal, sloping down.

We weren't trained for something like that and actually i did bump the back of my tank.

It bothered me quite a lot that the DM encouraged us to do it.

where you in the light zone the whole time? If not in the light zone then this is completely wrong

 

[boulderjohn]

Yeah this bothers me quite a bit actually

I just did a dive at 24-33m at this place called Boga Wreck in Tulamben, Bali, where it was a "swim-through" and not a "penetration" after seeing your post.

We couldn't see the end of the swim through when going through the entrance at 24m (which eventually opened up at a 33m exit, the swim-through was diagonal, sloping down.

We weren't trained for something like that and actually i did bump the back of my tank.

It bothered me quite a lot that the DM encouraged us to do it.

My discussions with PADI went beyond what I described earlier. When I said that the language in the wreck course (and others) was unclear, they asked me to suggest other language. I did, and they said they would use it when courses are rewritten. Not long after that, they wrote an article about it in their professional journal, giving me credit for it. In regard to swim-throughs, I said that divers need to make decisions based upon the characteristics of the swim through and their own skills, experience, and equipment. A short swim-through with no impediments of silt can be done by just about everyone. (Believe it or not, it is even allowed during OW certification dives.) One such as you describe is on a much different level. The only reason to do it was faith in your dive guide, making it what is called a "trust me" dive.

The problem is the "one size fits all" label that lumps all situations into one category without allowing room for diver judgment.

 

[growcurlyhair]

where you in the light zone the whole time? If not in the light zone then this is completely wrong

at some point it was pitch black ahead without a flashlight. maybe 30 seconds later of kicking there was a faint blue light ahead.


It was my first time in an overhead environment, and i was thinking to myself "is this what a leap of faith feels like in diving?" so i'm not sure if that counts.

 

[growcurlyhair]

My discussions with PADI went beyond what I described earlier. When I said that the language in the wreck course (and others) was unclear, they asked me to suggest other language. I did, and they said they would use it when courses are rewritten. Not long after that, they wrote an article about it in their professional journal, giving me credit for it. In regard to swim-throughs, I said that divers need to make decisions based upon the characteristics of the swim through and their own skills, experience, and equipment. A short swim-through with no impediments of silt can be done by just about everyone. (Believe it or not, it is even allowed during OW certification dives.) One such as you describe is on a much different level. The only reason to do it was faith in your dive guide, making it what is called a "trust me" dive.

The problem is the "one size fits all" label that lumps all situations into one category without allowing room for diver judgment.

yeah agreed on the "one size fits all" label. i do think its hard to classify every swim through scenario though, especially where the dive masters/dive guides in backcountry asia might not be as clear on the terminology. And of course, they try to sell experiences hard.

Luckily our guide kept somewhat near to our group inside, and was clear on the dive plan

 

[noserider]

at some point it was pitch black ahead without a flashlight. maybe 30 seconds later of kicking there was a faint blue light ahead.


It was my first time in an overhead environment, and i was thinking to myself "is this what a leap of faith feels like in diving?" so i'm not sure if that counts.

Yes that is a leap of faith, what would have happened if your flash light had failed or silt had suddenly been kicked up and viz dropped, could you have found the exit, could you have found your buddies? Could you have found your way back to the entrance? If you could have found your way to an exit how would you have let other divers inside potentially looking for you know that you had exited?

 

[growcurlyhair]

Yes that is a leap of faith, what would have happened if your flash light had failed or silt had suddenly been kicked up and viz dropped, could you have found the exit, could you have found your buddies? Could you have found your way back to the entrance? If you could have found your way to an exit how would you have let other divers inside potentially looking for you know that you had exited?

yeah definitely an experience to reflect on, and think about. Thanks. Maybe we should just take a course for best practices and confidence. Not the worst course to take