Would you really know what was going on if your computer went into Deco...?
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MikeFerrara:
I am fortunate enough to dive with the same buddy for over 14 years; I think I have made 2 dives with someone else in that time, not counting solo of course. We keep up with whats going on with each other. But if you are inattentive enough to let your self or your buddy get in an OOA situation, missing a deco stop isnt the first problem you have.
Truva
IndigoBlue
Contributor
truva:
I always give out a list of diving rules to my scuba students, and the first one is PLAN YOUR DIVE & DIVE YOUR PLAN. That is my Rule #1. Therefore if you ended up in deco mode on a recreational dive, then your plan was bad, or you failed to dive your plan.
The Suunto dive computers have RGBM programmed into them, and they will give you an air-dive or nitrox-dive deco algorithm. It will not be very efficient, however, because in real deco diving, we switch to a high-oxygen deco mix, or several.
Exceeding NDLs is not "an easily manageable risk." It is a huge risk that no properly trained deco diver would take. So why should it be intelligent for a non-deco-trained diver to do it? Answer: it is NOT intelligent to take this risk.
Calling DAN may not help you. The only thing DAN is going to be able to do is direct you to 911, or call 911 for you, to transport you first to a hospital with pure O2 available, and then to a deco chamber, where you will spend the next several hours on pure O2 at high pressure. Is that "an easily manageable risk"?
Proper deco diving requires:
Gear redundancy
Training in the useage of redundant gear
Multiple gas management
Training in the usage of multiple gases
Buoyancy control
Perfect trim and weighting
Contingency planning
Contingency gear
Predive planning and staging
Training in all the above
Excellent hydration at all times
Excellent health and conditioning
10+ pages of proof that computers do indeed rot your brain. 
IndigoBlue
Contributor
Uncle Pug:10+ pages of proof that computers do indeed rot your brain.
I hate it when you are so completely irrefutably right, UnclePug.
IndigoBlue said:
I always give out a list of diving rules to my scuba students, and the first one is PLAN YOUR DIVE & DIVE YOUR PLAN. That is my Rule #1. Therefore if you ended up in deco mode on a recreational dive, then your plan was bad, or you failed to dive your plan.
The Suunto dive computers have RGBM programmed into them, and they will give you an air-dive or nitrox-dive deco algorithm. It will not be very efficient, however, because in real deco diving, we switch to a high-oxygen deco mix, or several.
Exceeding NDLs is not "an easily manageable risk." It is a huge risk that no properly trained deco diver would take. So why should it be intelligent for a non-deco-trained diver to do it? Answer: it is NOT intelligent to take this risk.
Calling DAN may not help you. The only thing DAN is going to be able to do is direct you to 911, or call 911 for you, to transport you first to a hospital with pure O2 available, and then to a deco chamber, where you will spend the next several hours on pure O2 at high pressure. Is that "an easily manageable risk"?
Proper deco diving requires:
Gear redundancy
Training in the useage of redundant gear
Multiple gas management
Training in the usage of multiple gases
Buoyancy control
Perfect trim and weighting
Contingency planning
Contingency gear
Predive planning and staging
Training in all the above
Excellent hydration at all times
Excellent health and conditioning
Your refering to sport or recreational diving right? ;^)
:cop:
Gary D.
I always give out a list of diving rules to my scuba students, and the first one is PLAN YOUR DIVE & DIVE YOUR PLAN. That is my Rule #1. Therefore if you ended up in deco mode on a recreational dive, then your plan was bad, or you failed to dive your plan.
The Suunto dive computers have RGBM programmed into them, and they will give you an air-dive or nitrox-dive deco algorithm. It will not be very efficient, however, because in real deco diving, we switch to a high-oxygen deco mix, or several.
Exceeding NDLs is not "an easily manageable risk." It is a huge risk that no properly trained deco diver would take. So why should it be intelligent for a non-deco-trained diver to do it? Answer: it is NOT intelligent to take this risk.
Calling DAN may not help you. The only thing DAN is going to be able to do is direct you to 911, or call 911 for you, to transport you first to a hospital with pure O2 available, and then to a deco chamber, where you will spend the next several hours on pure O2 at high pressure. Is that "an easily manageable risk"?
Proper deco diving requires:
Gear redundancy
Training in the useage of redundant gear
Multiple gas management
Training in the usage of multiple gases
Buoyancy control
Perfect trim and weighting
Contingency planning
Contingency gear
Predive planning and staging
Training in all the above
Excellent hydration at all times
Excellent health and conditioning
Your refering to sport or recreational diving right? ;^)
:cop:
Gary D.
I'm not with any of you all the way on this, but am with a surprising bunch of 'ya on various parts of it (and a motley crew it is!)
As Spectre pointed out, the Suuntos don't say "go to 10 feet and sit" when you enter deco, but if you do not understand decompression that's what you are extremely likely to take both from the display and their narrative in the manual! Indeed, the manual states (truthfully) that while above the floor you will decompress, but originally it will be very slow, and of course that you will decompress faster towards the ceiling. It leaves unsaid that going directly to the ceiling is unwise, and I can definitely understand how someone could get that impression from the display AND the manual they supply.
IMHO, they're WAY remiss in the way its worded.
Second, the Vytec can handle 3 Nitrox mixes - so unless you're diving Trimix, it can indeed account for deco gasses....
Personally, I believe that you can learn MORE than you will in a class by making a study of decompression procedures, including getting a copy of Vplanner (nagware, and cheap to register - well worth it) and playing with various dive profiles. If you do this for any significant number of simulated dives (and simulating them is, of course, completely safe!) you'll begin to see a pattern if you have enough neurons working to actually DO this kind of diving. Given that understanding, IF the computer beeps "DECO" at you, the knowledge will be there to make a proper ascent, using the computer to VERIFY when you're "clear." If you DO understand how it works, the computer will effectively be your backup in executing this, because if you just did the profile on ascent, the computer would be clear before you go to the 10' stop it wants you to make (assuming we're talking "light" overstays here - no, I'm not talking about dives with an hour of mandatory stops!)
There is no "magic" about decompression. Yes, it can badly hurt or even kill you if you do it wrong, but all dives are decompression dives. If you want to test this go ahead and stay to the NDL on a nice 100' dive and then do a polaris ascent, and let us know how much the chamber bill is, because you're VERY likely to end up with a chamber ride out of that. NO, YOU SHOULD NOT DO THAT, FOR THE SARCASM IMPAIRED!
I intentionally dive with required decompression from time to time, and I have no "formal" training. I have made a study of how it works though, and I certainly don't do it without the required redundancy in my equipment to INSURE that I can meet the required schedule. Decompression is an overhead that is just as "real" as a cave; if you cannot make your stops for any reason you are quite likely to end up hurt or worse.
As Spectre pointed out, the Suuntos don't say "go to 10 feet and sit" when you enter deco, but if you do not understand decompression that's what you are extremely likely to take both from the display and their narrative in the manual! Indeed, the manual states (truthfully) that while above the floor you will decompress, but originally it will be very slow, and of course that you will decompress faster towards the ceiling. It leaves unsaid that going directly to the ceiling is unwise, and I can definitely understand how someone could get that impression from the display AND the manual they supply.
IMHO, they're WAY remiss in the way its worded.
Second, the Vytec can handle 3 Nitrox mixes - so unless you're diving Trimix, it can indeed account for deco gasses....
Personally, I believe that you can learn MORE than you will in a class by making a study of decompression procedures, including getting a copy of Vplanner (nagware, and cheap to register - well worth it) and playing with various dive profiles. If you do this for any significant number of simulated dives (and simulating them is, of course, completely safe!) you'll begin to see a pattern if you have enough neurons working to actually DO this kind of diving. Given that understanding, IF the computer beeps "DECO" at you, the knowledge will be there to make a proper ascent, using the computer to VERIFY when you're "clear." If you DO understand how it works, the computer will effectively be your backup in executing this, because if you just did the profile on ascent, the computer would be clear before you go to the 10' stop it wants you to make (assuming we're talking "light" overstays here - no, I'm not talking about dives with an hour of mandatory stops!)
There is no "magic" about decompression. Yes, it can badly hurt or even kill you if you do it wrong, but all dives are decompression dives. If you want to test this go ahead and stay to the NDL on a nice 100' dive and then do a polaris ascent, and let us know how much the chamber bill is, because you're VERY likely to end up with a chamber ride out of that. NO, YOU SHOULD NOT DO THAT, FOR THE SARCASM IMPAIRED!
I intentionally dive with required decompression from time to time, and I have no "formal" training. I have made a study of how it works though, and I certainly don't do it without the required redundancy in my equipment to INSURE that I can meet the required schedule. Decompression is an overhead that is just as "real" as a cave; if you cannot make your stops for any reason you are quite likely to end up hurt or worse.
truva:We keep up with what’s going on with each other. But if you are “inattentive” enough to let your self or your buddy get in an OOA situation, missing a deco stop isn’t the first problem you have.
Truva
Equipment failure like a free flow or a busted low pressure hose? The point is that on any dive but especially a dive requireing staged decompression each diver needs enough gas for the worst case situation which is to get both divers back if one suffers a total gas loss at the worst time. If you're shallow and don't have a decompression obligation you can argue that the plan is an ESA. Bad idea with a decompression obligation (even a little one)
Diving common recreational equipment (AL 80) it's kind of hard for most people to get very far into deco on a tank of gas unless you're rather deep or it's a repetative dive and that's really a bad time to risk messing up deco or missing a stop.
Are these people who are incurring a decompression obligation to test their computers decompression mode function going to have that reserve gas diving what? an AL 80?
If they don't know ahead of time what the schedule is going to be how do they plan their gas?
Sorry, intentionally incuring a decompression obligation with recreational equipment and your run of the mill recreational training and blindly trusting your computers schedule is really, really NOT smart.
I guess that's my story and I'm stickin to it no matter how much I'm accused of pushing people to do things my way.
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