Would you Encourage or Discourage your Child to Enlist?

[H2Andy]

How can you be confident the Shia won't kill the Sunnis as soon as we leave?

which is why we shouldn't have messed with Iraq in the first place. ruthless as he was, Saddam had the place under control and was a check on Irani power

but ... to answer your question ... Sunnis are a majority in the Arab world.... what we need to do is enlist other Sunni nations (such as Saudi Arabia) to defend the Iraqi Sunnis and serve as a balance against Shiite Iraq ...

it can be done

 

[lamont]

Nice to hear all this theory from the noncombatants. Doubt it will play out anywhere close.

here's a book for you by a graduate of west point, vietnam veteran and catholic conservative on the military for you:

http://www.amazon.com/New-American-Militarism-Americans-Seduced/dp/0195311981

one of the problems that Bacevich points out about the all-volunteer military is that it creates a soldier class which defines itself in opposition to the civilians which it is supposed to serve.

and so far its playing out exactly like i thought it would. no WMD program, democratic elections lead to shia control of the government, which leads to a sunni-shia civil war... of course, james baker, GHWB and colin powell predicted it back in 1991...

 

[lamont]

That sounds plausible, any politiicians you see on the horizon show any signs of promise? cause I just don't hear any ideas...

The Biden-Gelb plan is the closest to what Ali Allawi is calling for.

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FB0F1FFF3A5B0C728CDDAC0894DE404482

Its now in the NYT archives though so you can't read it directly for free, but google around and you should be able to find the details.

The talk of dividing the country has been there, the oil wells and access to that sliver of land is a rub. How can you be confident the Shia won't kill the Sunnis as soon as we leave?

That is why i would frame the problem as a question of how to partition the country and turn the power over to regional governments while minimizing the atrocities in the areas where its mixed Sunni-Shia or Arab-Kurd. The answer may not be to pack up and leave tomorrow, but we're never going to leave while trying to keep Iraq as a non-sectarian unified government, army and police force.

unacceptable what Saddam did. Maybe things have to get worse before they get better.

I don't think so. Its possible that if we just packed up and left abruptly that it would get a lot worse. But if we would come up with a realistic vision of a post-US-occupation iraq and start working towards that while working on a phased withdrawal of US troops we might be able to get out of Iraq with the minimum amount of bloodshed possible. The current plan is that if we just militarily win the insurgency that it'll all work out -- but the insurgency is fed by an inherently unbalanced political solution to Iraq and will remain no matter what the military strategy until the political imbalances are fixed or minimized.

 

[Kevrumbo]

no b.s. now ... if your 18 year old son or daughter wanted to join the Army or Marines, would you say "Go for it" or "I wouldn't recomend it?"

no politics ... just "gut feeling"

i ask because of this article:


Military Sees Parents as Big Recruiting Obstacle

Absolutely not and no need to ever join again. . .

This Family has already earned its American Citizenship, and sacrificed enough in the Patriotic Service of the USA and its Ground Forces --from WWII (Grand Uncle "surviving" Bataan Death March to captivity, and my parents as teenagers enduring the horrors of the Japanese Occupation); to the Korean War (Father is a Silver Star Recipient and currently suffering from Depression, Survivor's Guilt and PTSD); and the Vietnam War (Uncle died from Cancer due to Agent Orange exposure). . .

 

[Azza]

Iraq is not a country. it's a collection of tribes split into three general groups (Khurds, Sunnis, and Shiites). only ruthless force can keep them together.

I must admit, it is refreshing to hear some people in the western hemisphere have some historical knowledge outside of their own country, although 3 tribes isnt strictly accurate...but close enough for these modern times.
If only the politicians had some idea of history...

 

[grazie42]

I just don´t understand it...

It was the same in Jugoslavia, Africa (think Rwanda), Malaysia, Iraq and to some extent former USSR (though mostly without the violence, discounting chechnya)...

Neighbours killing neighbours and doing far worse things than that...whatever the opression that was there before, I´m not sure that things got any better afterwards...

Really discouraging...

 

[Doubles]

all of that is irrelevant

given the circumstances of the Iraq war, if my child came to me and said, "should i join up?" i would say no

-- not enough troops to do the job
--not the right kind of supplies to protect you
--no hope of ever making your death mean anything in a war that was a mistake
--a pull-out sooner or later (why should you die in the meantime?)


hell no, kid ... stay at home. it's a lost cause.

So the truth comes out Andy - it WAS a political cause behind the original post - just masked in some ridiculous survey

don't get me wrong ... Afghanistan was necessary. the Taliban were harboring someone who had attacked America.

not so Iraq. Iraq was a total miscarriage of American foreign policy, and it has weakened and hurt us around the world, inflamed sentiments against us, and is in the process of training a cadre of terrorists in training camps far better than anything in Afghanistan

The Iraq war was justified - our govt just used the wrong reason. in 1995 we went to war to dispose Slobodan Milosevic. And I am fairly certain we did that without any UN mandate - I don't see any difference between Milosevic and Hussein.

Yep the war hasn't gone well, and I think we would be better to solve it the same way we did in 1995 - and that might happen yet anyway. As for IRAN we don't need to go to war with them, we just need to blockade their oil tankers. Let's see how long they last with no money coming in - their economy is in the toilet now anyway. Oh but then we might have to pay more for gas. Hell I am betting 50 cents on every dollar we pay for oil/gas goes to support the other side of the war anyway - not much discussion about that

It's our country we don't have to like what goes on - and yes you have the freedom to state your opinions - but you damn sure better thank someone for the service to the country that granted that to you. Wonder what would have happened if we had this same mentality in previous world wars? Osama is right - we just don't have the guts for war

Next time you want to say something Andy - just say it - don't hide behind some "non-political poll"

-s

 

[H2Andy]

So the truth comes out Andy - it WAS a political cause behind the original post - just masked in some ridiculous survey

i would love to know how you can give advice to your child about the Iraqi war without taking US foreign policy into condideration. if you want to call that political, that's your call

to me, politics is more Bush v. Clinton, or Democrats v. Republicans ... some people have made mention of that in the thread, but note that I don't really care about that

my kid will be dead no matter what the name of the guy in office or his political affiliation. makes no difference to me

Next time you want to say something Andy - just say it - don't hide behind some "non-political poll"

do enlighten me, since you know my thinking better than i do ... what is it that i am saying?

that it's bad to ignore generals who need double the troops we have to go into Iraq?

that it's bad to send toops into combat without proper body armor?

that it's bad to have insufficient armored vehicles that can protect infantry from IED's?

that is bad to start a war not knowing the local conditions and the history and religion that will make occupation of that country a virtual impossibility?

that given those circumstances, it's a bad idea for my child to go and get killed in a mistaken war?

that seems like common sense to me, not politics

 

[H2Andy]

although 3 tribes isnt strictly accurate...but close enough for these modern times.

i said a collection of tribes split into three general groups, Shiite, Khurd, and Sunni

there's way more than 3 tribes in Iraq

 

[Thalassamania]

that it's bad to ignore generals who need double the troops we have to go into Iraq?

that it's bad to send toops into combat without proper body armor?

that it's bad to have insufficient armored vehicles that can protect infantry from IED's?

that is bad to start a war not knowing the local conditions and the history and religion that will make occupation of that country a virtual impossibility?

I think the psychiatric term for our government's problem is disjunctive (disassociative?) cognition.