jreeves
New
When I first saw this thread, I figured I would find lots of "support your LDS" posts. There is NOT A single one. That is a little scary. This isn't one either, but it is not quite what you might expect.
Every time I read a post about an LDS that gouges new customers because the customers don't know any better, I shudder. On the other hand, I wonder how much of that is simply greed, and how much of it is a direct reaction to having to put up with a steady stream of non-customers who come through their doors with the attitude "I want to buy 'x'. Will you match LP's price for it? If not, I'll buy it online." Nobody likes being given an ultimatum, and the truth is the LDS probably can't match LP's price - not "won't match", but CAN'T MATCH.
LP probably sells more fins (to take one example), in an hour than the the LDS sells in a month. And they do it every hour, seven days a week. That kind of volume means LP probably pays less - maybe 25% to 50% less - for those fins than the LDS. Anybody who thinks wholesale prices are fixed can't spell V-O-L-U-M-E. So, do the math.
And yes, LP may have a real bricks-and-mortar store is high rent New York, but their overhead is still probably only a fraction of the LDS in Utah. Their volume is orders of magnitude higher (so their costs are lower), and they don't have "inventory" in the traditional sense (their showroom is just another warehouse for their online business).
This is not a "support your LDS" rant; you're entitled to spend your money however, and wherever you want. I certainly feel that way, and I am an inveritable online shopper. But it IS a "don't be an idiot about it" rant. The LDS are not the ones who need to "get a clue". I shop online for the selection, the price, being able to do it whenever I want, not having to put up with pushy sales people (or worse, clueless salespeople), I don't mind waiting a few days to get my purchase, and the online retailers I deal with have excellent return policies in case I don't like what I bought for some reason. But I try not to be stupid about it. In particular, I don't adopt a "screw you" attitude towards my LDS because they can't match the price of the online super stores. If their attitude is "you want to dive with us, you shop with us" then I go somewhere else (I live in southern California, so fortunately I have options). But frankly, I don't have that problem. I don't try to screw my LDS, and they don't treat me like a pariah.
For example, if I spend an hour in my LDS playing with a new computer I am interested in, I don't turn around and buy it online just to save $50. They have earned that much "good will" from me.
Since "good will" is a nebulous thing, I can not put a fixed dollar amount to it. I will note however that those people who figure the concept of "good will" is only for suckers should not be surprised if they find that most of the people they deal with have very little of it for them.
When I decided to get back into diving after a long absence, I decided I needed to replace all my old gear. This included buying some items that I had not purchased before - such as my own reg. My research quickly led me to Atomic Aquatics. Their regulators are suppose to be amongst the very best. They are also amongst the most expensive, and Atomics is one of those companies that dose not authorize online sells.
The latter does not bother me as much as it apparently does some others on this thread. There are lots of things you can not buy online. Some are illegal (e.g. firearms), some are unsafe (e.g. fireworks) and some you wonder about. For example, there are no authorized online retailers of Rolex watches. You also can not buy Rolexes at Sears, or Target, or even Macy's so there is more going on than just "price fixing". This is a deliberate marketing strategy.
Rolex positions itself as a "special" or "exclusive" product. Part of maintaining that image is the aspect of scarcity. People who buy a Rolex have to be willing to seek out the special dealers who carry them, and pay the "special" price. The message is: "Rolex is special, and the people who buy them are special".
Personally, I think a Rolex is an expensive piece of otherwise worthless jewelery, and I am not interested. Enough people disagree with me to have kept Rolex in business a long time however. If a Casio, (or a Timex or a Swatch) is all you need then you can get them anywhere, but if you want a Rolex, you have to play the game by their rules. But that is part of appeal of a Rolex in the first place.
Scubapro, Aqualung, and Atomics have marketing strategies similar to Rolex (fortunately without Rolex's prices). They are also widely considered to be amongst the best products available. This is not a coincidence. Those people who suggest we avoid SP, or AL, or AA until they start following our rules, i.e. sell online, are naive, at best. Instead, I predict it will be the other way around: the LDS'es that do not carry one (or more) of these exclusive brands will all go out of business because they can not compete with the online stores. Those dive shops that do carry SP, AL, and /or AA will thrive in direct proportion to the publics perception that these companies products are worth the prices they demand.
For myself, I came to feel that Atomics regulators were not simply overpriced status symbols, but in fact had features that I was willing to pay for. So, I started visiting nearby dive shops that carried Atomics. I discovered that all but one of them was willing to "deal" in one way or another. I ended up buying an entire package from one of them - reg, octo, bc, computer, mask, fins, snorkel, boots, and gloves. I feel like I got a good deal. I sure as heck did not pay retail.
Could I have saved money buying online? Absolutely! I probably could have saved a $1000, but I would not have gotten the same stuff. Could I have found stuff that was "just as good" online? That's a tougher question, and it is one I can not answer.
For me, I decided what I wanted, and that determined where I could buy it, and how much I would have to pay for it. Others may have different priorities.
Would I buy online? Absolutely! I didn't this time, but I do it all the time in other areas, so I would not hesitate. The key point however is that I don't consider online shops and my LDS as opponents is a zero sum game - winner takes all, let the cheapest price win. Instead, I figure the more options, the better.
Every time I read a post about an LDS that gouges new customers because the customers don't know any better, I shudder. On the other hand, I wonder how much of that is simply greed, and how much of it is a direct reaction to having to put up with a steady stream of non-customers who come through their doors with the attitude "I want to buy 'x'. Will you match LP's price for it? If not, I'll buy it online." Nobody likes being given an ultimatum, and the truth is the LDS probably can't match LP's price - not "won't match", but CAN'T MATCH.
LP probably sells more fins (to take one example), in an hour than the the LDS sells in a month. And they do it every hour, seven days a week. That kind of volume means LP probably pays less - maybe 25% to 50% less - for those fins than the LDS. Anybody who thinks wholesale prices are fixed can't spell V-O-L-U-M-E. So, do the math.
And yes, LP may have a real bricks-and-mortar store is high rent New York, but their overhead is still probably only a fraction of the LDS in Utah. Their volume is orders of magnitude higher (so their costs are lower), and they don't have "inventory" in the traditional sense (their showroom is just another warehouse for their online business).
This is not a "support your LDS" rant; you're entitled to spend your money however, and wherever you want. I certainly feel that way, and I am an inveritable online shopper. But it IS a "don't be an idiot about it" rant. The LDS are not the ones who need to "get a clue". I shop online for the selection, the price, being able to do it whenever I want, not having to put up with pushy sales people (or worse, clueless salespeople), I don't mind waiting a few days to get my purchase, and the online retailers I deal with have excellent return policies in case I don't like what I bought for some reason. But I try not to be stupid about it. In particular, I don't adopt a "screw you" attitude towards my LDS because they can't match the price of the online super stores. If their attitude is "you want to dive with us, you shop with us" then I go somewhere else (I live in southern California, so fortunately I have options). But frankly, I don't have that problem. I don't try to screw my LDS, and they don't treat me like a pariah.
For example, if I spend an hour in my LDS playing with a new computer I am interested in, I don't turn around and buy it online just to save $50. They have earned that much "good will" from me.
Since "good will" is a nebulous thing, I can not put a fixed dollar amount to it. I will note however that those people who figure the concept of "good will" is only for suckers should not be surprised if they find that most of the people they deal with have very little of it for them.
When I decided to get back into diving after a long absence, I decided I needed to replace all my old gear. This included buying some items that I had not purchased before - such as my own reg. My research quickly led me to Atomic Aquatics. Their regulators are suppose to be amongst the very best. They are also amongst the most expensive, and Atomics is one of those companies that dose not authorize online sells.
The latter does not bother me as much as it apparently does some others on this thread. There are lots of things you can not buy online. Some are illegal (e.g. firearms), some are unsafe (e.g. fireworks) and some you wonder about. For example, there are no authorized online retailers of Rolex watches. You also can not buy Rolexes at Sears, or Target, or even Macy's so there is more going on than just "price fixing". This is a deliberate marketing strategy.
Rolex positions itself as a "special" or "exclusive" product. Part of maintaining that image is the aspect of scarcity. People who buy a Rolex have to be willing to seek out the special dealers who carry them, and pay the "special" price. The message is: "Rolex is special, and the people who buy them are special".
Personally, I think a Rolex is an expensive piece of otherwise worthless jewelery, and I am not interested. Enough people disagree with me to have kept Rolex in business a long time however. If a Casio, (or a Timex or a Swatch) is all you need then you can get them anywhere, but if you want a Rolex, you have to play the game by their rules. But that is part of appeal of a Rolex in the first place.
Scubapro, Aqualung, and Atomics have marketing strategies similar to Rolex (fortunately without Rolex's prices). They are also widely considered to be amongst the best products available. This is not a coincidence. Those people who suggest we avoid SP, or AL, or AA until they start following our rules, i.e. sell online, are naive, at best. Instead, I predict it will be the other way around: the LDS'es that do not carry one (or more) of these exclusive brands will all go out of business because they can not compete with the online stores. Those dive shops that do carry SP, AL, and /or AA will thrive in direct proportion to the publics perception that these companies products are worth the prices they demand.
For myself, I came to feel that Atomics regulators were not simply overpriced status symbols, but in fact had features that I was willing to pay for. So, I started visiting nearby dive shops that carried Atomics. I discovered that all but one of them was willing to "deal" in one way or another. I ended up buying an entire package from one of them - reg, octo, bc, computer, mask, fins, snorkel, boots, and gloves. I feel like I got a good deal. I sure as heck did not pay retail.
Could I have saved money buying online? Absolutely! I probably could have saved a $1000, but I would not have gotten the same stuff. Could I have found stuff that was "just as good" online? That's a tougher question, and it is one I can not answer.
For me, I decided what I wanted, and that determined where I could buy it, and how much I would have to pay for it. Others may have different priorities.
Would I buy online? Absolutely! I didn't this time, but I do it all the time in other areas, so I would not hesitate. The key point however is that I don't consider online shops and my LDS as opponents is a zero sum game - winner takes all, let the cheapest price win. Instead, I figure the more options, the better.
