Work permit situation and a ramble

[macrobubble]

Read the following article and you'll get a broader idea. It describes exactly the same situation we're addressing here:

Egypt labor ministry tackles unemployment, minimum wage and syndical pluralism - Economy - Business - Ahram Online

Read it and have basically no problem with the content.
Nevertheless, the key sentence is:

"Jobs that require three to six months training are reserved for Egyptians.

Do you really, really beleive this applies to DMs and instructors?
Do you really beleive language skills are no part of a job description in the diving industry?
So do you really beleive the statement can or should fully apply to jobs in this industry and its needs and standards?

I think our differences are the result of a fundamentally different look at the required standards in diving and how to implement them. I say again: If the new, temporary government will go for new labour rules, they have to give a transitional period to the diving centers to be able to comply by giving them time to train Egyptians accordingly. Make it a year or two years and then everybody has a chance to adjust. Changing back over night and unexpectedly to 10:1 is simply impossible if we want to cater to the needs of the customers. I am not against giving Egyptians these jobs! I am against rushing things and lowering the quality and standards in order to do so and hurt the industry in the process for everybody involved. Now imagine, what if the government that will be properly elected later this year has completely different ideas again? Nobody can know that right now. Don´t make rushed decisions only because some people now think they can get everthing over night for completely selfish reasons and without regard of the consequences...

 

[Red Sea Shadow]

Regarding the standards, contact your dive affiliation/agency. They put the current standards and flooded the market with professionals.

I'm not making any decisions, neither rushed nor patient. Actually I don't have any personal interest, as I won't gain (or lose) anything. As for the government, let them do what they believe is best for the country. A lot of people are already telling them what to do and what to not do.

 

[macrobubble]

Regarding the standards, contact your dive affiliation/agency. They put the current standards and flooded the market with professionals.

I`m talking about the standards centers should have for themselves and their customers. This has nothing to do with the agencies. That´s a completely different issue and btw. can not solve the problem of DMs that got their card from a friend "so they can work". Centers decide whom they will employ based on the skills of the applicants. If PADI produces DMs and instructors en masse that does not give those a job guarantee.

And you are avoiding my question again:
Do you think being a competent DM or even instructor is a job one can learn in 3 - 6 months? Are language skills part of the job description? And does the statement therefore apply to jobs in the diving industry?

 

[Red Sea Shadow]

I'm not avoiding answering your question. I'm just trying to convince you I'm not the one supposed to be asked this question!

Why don't you write to PADI (or whatever your affiliation is)?

Consider the following scenario. One of the labor force is wondering why the dive industry is dominated by foreigners. He asked what the "standards" to be a dive professional are. He got the answer; there are 2 type of jobs; guide and instructor. A guide could be produced, according to the agency standards, in as quick as a month or so. An instructor could be produced, again according to the agency standards, in as quick as 6 months.

Those are the certification agency standards, and they are accredited by American and European "councils" and "federations".

But they need language skills, the labor force guy is still wondering. Can we do a tailored program for that? Well, the answer is, one has already started in Sharm.

Does the statement you highlighted above apply to dive-related jobs? The standards part of the answer should come from the agencies. If they say yes, they should demonstrate how. If they say no, they'll be shooting themselves.

 

[samaka]

Another angle...

If there had never been any foreign dive staff would the salaries in the dive industry be what they are today?

If all foreign dive staff would leave Egypt would then the salaries stay on the same level?

I don't know the answer to these questions but I am interested in what others think about it.

.......a.......

 

[Red Sea Shadow]

The pay can't go any lower in Dahab.

 

[macrobubble]

Another angle...

If there had never been any foreign dive staff would the salaries in the dive industry be what they are today?

If there had never been any foreigners there would not be a dive industry on that scale in the first place. So this question has no definite answer...

If all foreign dive staff would leave Egypt would then the salaries stay on the same level?

Worst case: Yes. Nobody in his right mind would want to lower the salaries because you want happy staff to have happy customers.
Best case: No, because local staff does not carry the additional costs with them for work permits etc. There would be a higher budget available for salaries which could lead to a (slight) increase.

In the end is is as always the market that sets salaries. Supply vs. demand...

 

[Crowley]

Another angle...

If there had never been any foreign dive staff would the salaries in the dive industry be what they are today?

If all foreign dive staff would leave Egypt would then the salaries stay on the same level?

I don't know the answer to these questions but I am interested in what others think about it.

.......a.......

As I posted before - instructors at my centre are all paid on the same basis - regardless of nationality. An earlier post suggests that Egyptian DMs/guide/instructors hired by smaller Egyptian shops are paid much less.

Look at the structure of the Egyptian financial climate - if there is a way of paying people less so that the people in charge earn more, then this is guaranteed to happen. The same is also true of many so-called "western" countries, If the Egyptian national average is 100 US dollars per month, then a dive centre where you can earn 200 Euros per month seems like a great thing... but a good Egyptian worker can make five times that working at the right place.

macrobubble is right - we all need a chance to adjust. Maybe several hundred thousand Egyptians made a protest which resulted in the overthrow of the government, but 80-million or so (plus a few thousand foreign dive instructors) sat at home and watched it all happen on TV, wondering: "what happens next"

For a long time the foreign labour without the work permit was tolerated. This was not a decision made by the foreign dive staff. This was a "gentleman's" (aha) agreement to ensure that the dive industry carried on. Let's not forget that 10 years ago, even Sharm was 90% divers and 10% tourists; now it's the other way around. In smaller places such as Dahab, the 10:1, or even 10:3 ratio becomes a lot more difficult to live with when it comes to employing staff with a particular extra skill or language background.

Yes, PADI runs instructor exams which is technically un-biased, but I know all too many DMs, Egyptian, Thai, American, British, whatever, who were signed off by a " friend"

I finished my 75 question CDWS exam in 20 minutes, after checking it twice because I was bored and didn't want to leave the room first - and afterwards a local guide asked me if it was difficult and I said to him that as long as he knew a few rescue techniques, some DM theory and some local regulations, he would be fine.

"Really?" he said, in fluent english, "because my friends said it was really difficult."

okay this could be down to a language issue - the test was not available in Arabic, but an Arabic-only speaking instructor in the resorts would be next to pointless.

I would love for the world to be perfect, but it isn't. At the moment in the resorts we have a lot of good foreign dive staff, a few very crappy foreign staff, but we also have a few very good Egyptian dive staff, and a lot of crappy ones.

I know that this is not what Egyptians would want to hear, but it's the truth right now. It takes a minimum of 6 months to train an instructor who has never dived before, and the language issue is not limited to Egypt: Instructors who don't speak Spanish are unlikely to be employed in Mexico - which actually rules out a lot of multilingual European instructors.

I would very much like to see more Egyptian staff working, but it's not going to happen out. If foreign staff are forced out, because it's too expensive or they fear arrest and deportation for being a criminal, the dive industry would collapse.

But this doesn't matter any more, because the amount of money made by diving is no longer as significant as it used to be - at least, such is the case here in Sharm. The snorkel boats and glass bottomed boats and the 20 dollar 20 minute intro-dive will win in the end, because actually even the glass bottom boats ear more per day than all five big name centres combined.

I agree with the sentiment that - whatever happens - it cannot happen overnight; it takes time to works these things out and finding the happy balance in the middle.

The tourist industry in the Red Sea was built by foreign divers and for 30 years, by foreign dive staff. Hundreds of thousands of Egyptians are employed as a direct result of the lure of divers to Sharm and backpackers to Dahab.

Times change, but they do not always need to change by September 7th, altogether, all at the same exact moment. This would be silliness.

Cheers.

C.

 

[Red Sea Shadow]

Maybe several hundred thousand Egyptians made a protest which resulted in the overthrow of the government, but 80-million or so (plus a few thousand foreign dive instructors) sat at home and watched it all happen on TV, wondering: "what happens next"

Several hundred thousand Egyptians? A protest? The government? Obviously the TV screen you were watching needs some adjustment!

The least estimate at Tahrir alone, not to mention the other places, was 2 million. The total number all over the country was estimated to be in the range of 10 to 12 million. This is a revolution, a big revolution, not just a protest.

The government thing applies to the UK, not to Egpyt. BTW, the government was overthrown only 4 days after the revolution's start. However, what people were aiming at (and what they eventually achieved) was to overthrow the whole regime.

 

[macrobubble]

Several hundred thousand Egyptians? A protest? The government? Obviously the TV screen you were watching needs some adjustment!

The least estimate at Tahrir alone, not to mention the other places, was 2 million. The total number all over the country was estimated to be in the range of 10 to 12 million. This is a revolution, a big revolution, not just a protest.

I know Tharir and it could not hold 2 million if you stacked them in double layers. In fact it was in reality only some hundred thousands that were actively involved in the revolution day after day - and in the beginning not even that. How you get to the number of 10 to 12 million escapes me. Other than in Alex, Suez and Cairo there were no demonstrations in Egypt with remarkable numbers of participants. And there were for sure never that number of people on the street on any of the days. Maybe you mean that over the course of 18 days there were 10 to 12 million combined. That´s possible.

But that´s not the point. The revolution was a good thing, giving the Egyptians for the first time basic human rights as it should be. First of all the right to speak freely and the right of assembly. That´s a great achievement. But don´t you think, just because you got rid of a dictatorship everything will be better and all problems can be resolved the next day. Not the next week - not even the next year! To establish a true democracy begins in the heads of the people, not by cutting of heads! It´s a task for a generation as previous revolutions and changes of regimes in other countries have proven over and over again.
The sentiment to have everything now and immediately, to want to have the cake and eat it, will slaughter the cow that gives you milk. As Crowley pointed out: Change is good but destroying something that has grown for almost three decades to be an industry that, directly and indirectly, provides millions of jobs to Egyptians, that brings millions of customers and billions of dollars into the country every year, would be a foolish thing to do.

Everybody has to adjust to a new aera and surely mid-term and long-term the egyptian people will take over more and more jobs that are currently held by foreigners. But do demand that for right now is unrealistic! I understand where that comes from - but let´s hope cooler heads prevail and the change will be step by step and not a rushed thing based purely on emotions.