Work permit situation and a ramble

[Crowley]

Shadow - forgive me if I sounded like I was downplaying the revolution - you've read my posts and you know how much interest I took in the situation and how it affected me - It was indeed a revolution, and a wonderful thing for Egypt - and as I repeatedly state - it's great that everybody finally has an opportunity to make their voices heard.

Egyptians are generally speaking, basking in the afterglow of this amazing turn of events, but if you look at other historical revolutions, actually bringing down the government is the easy part, but fixing the day to day lives of the population cannot be done in a matter of weeks. And - I am not saying the revolution was easy - many lives were lost of course, but rather it's a matter of perspective - George Orwell's Animal Farm is an always excellent metaphorical read when it comes to revolution.

It is basic human nature to think about the short term, and that is what is happening in the dive industry right now. Some people think that if it is more difficult for foreigners to obtain work permits, jobs will be created for Egyptian dive professionals. It won't. It will simply create a vast hole in the dive business. This will eventually be filled with purely resort-type activities in the long term, but in the middle term it will mean a lot of unemployment for Egyptians working in the industry, especially the non-diving staff.

Where do we get all these guides and instructors from? This will mean a lot of locally trained, inexperienced dive staff - and in 2 years' time, if they last that long - there will be some really great locally trained staff - but it's not going to happen tomorrow.

It doesn't matter how many people were actually in Tahrier Square that day. It happened, it was great, nobody has a clue what will happen next and really, Egypt has some bigger problems that work permits for foreign divers.

I'm all for equal pay for dive professionals... regardless of nationality.

Cheers

C.

 

[Red Sea Shadow]

No worries mate. I know your good intentions

Anyway, to get to the point, what you guys say is, unfortunately, good only for coffee shop breaks. If you want smoother transition, you got to present your ideas the proper way. Moaning over here forever won't make any difference.

By proper presentation, I mean you do sort of a paper; a study with actual numbers to illustrate your point of view and your suggested proposal to a smoother transition. Now you can present your written, well-prepared ideas to the authorities.

Vague, unquantified statements such as "you will destroy the dive industry" or "that would only result in more job loss" won't get you anywhere. Believe me.

 

[macrobubble]

No worries mate. I know your good intentions

Anyway, to get to the point, what you guys say is, unfortunately, good only for coffee shop breaks. If you want smoother transition, you got to present your ideas the proper way. Moaning over here forever won't make any difference.

No, it won´t, but it reliefs inside pressure...

By proper presentation, I mean you do sort of a paper; a study with actual numbers to illustrate your point of view and your suggested proposal to a smoother transition. Now you can present your written, well-prepared ideas to the authorities.

Yeah, sure, as if it would be a good idea right now to create the impression we foreigners know better.
I´m sure, many people would be delighted if foreigners tell the authorities what to do...

Vague, unquantified statements such as "you will destroy the dive industry" or "that would only result in more job loss" won't get you anywhere. Believe me.

Oh, I do believe you!
The authorities are currently reacting to any pressure from the street to avoid further unrest. "Pacifying the crowd" seems to be the motto of these months.
After the elections in the fall of 2011, with a newly elected democratic government, I am sure some things will be seen up there in a different light. There are many intelligent people who will take office then and they can add up the numbers without our lowly help. We just have to hang on till then...

 

[Red Sea Shadow]

Yeah, sure, as if it would be a good idea right now to create the impression we foreigners know better.
I´m sure, many people would be delighted if foreigners tell the authorities what to do...

The authorities are currently reacting to any pressure from the street to avoid further unrest. "Pacifying the crowd" seems to be the motto of these months.
After the elections in the fall of 2011, with a newly elected democratic government, I am sure some things will be seen up there in a different light. There are many intelligent people who will take office then and they can add up the numbers without our lowly help. We just have to hang on till then...

Now I know for sure which party will "win the race". Ahmed, Mohamed, wait for me

 

[String]

Unfortunately the corruption in the MoT and down towards the CDWS level along with local police level is just as high as before. Suggestions are worthless as the institutions are still rotten to the core and only operating for the benefit of those they know or pay them.

 

[Red Sea Shadow]

Suggestions are worthless as the institutions are still rotten to the core and only operating for the benefit of those they know or pay them.

As far as I'm aware, the people at Dahab's assembly don't have "warm contacts" in either MoT or CDWS. Actually it might be the opposite.

 

[String]

Several do have "warm contacts" with the local police which is the problem. Most of them generally hate the CDWS (and half of them complained about the exam - the one that was ridiculously easy).

 

[macrobubble]

I have just found the following on the net:

Post revolution the new Government of Egypt intends to enforce rigourously the Manpower Law No: 292 (2010) updated March 2011 to ensure employment for Egyptian Citizens post Revolution.

The law is as follows:

All Egyptian and Foreign employers within Egypt henceforth must comply with Manpower Law 292 (2010) updated 2011.

Employers:

All employers henceforth shall require that any application for a work permit for a foreign national within the employers workplace must ensure that the vacancy MUST be filled by an Egyptian National in the first instance. If the employer cannot find the apporopriate skills for that vacancy within the Egyptian polulace the employer must convince the Manpower Ministry that:

a) The vacancy is economically required by the nation of Egypt and in it's interest.

b) Convince the Manpower Ministry that all efforts to employ an Egyptian have been undertaken with proof ie advertising, interviews and have been unsuccessful in finding an Egyptian with the required level of skills needed.

c) Preference for said work permits will always be given to foreigners who are legal residents of Egypt before non residents.

If the Manpower Ministry finds that all measures have been taken in accordance with the law 292 and no Egyptian can be used to fill the vacancy the Manpower Ministry will issue a work permit for a foreigner for the sum of 1,500 EGP per annum. This cost is non negotiable if the vacancy term is less than one year. There is no refund payable.

The Work Permit will ONLY be issued to the employer on the condition that the employer ALSO employ 2 Egyptians at the same time to enable the said 2 Egyptians to be trained in the specific skill requiring the work permit. In short the employer MUST employ 3 employees to fill one vacancy with 1 skilled foreigner and 2 Egyptians in training.

The limit for the foreigner work permit will not exceed 3 years in each job vacancy. This allows ample time for Egyptians to be trained in the specific skills needed to fill future vacancies.
The Work Permit for the foreigner is renewable at the discretion of the manpower Ministry annually.
It is the employers responsibility to apply for the work permit.

Exemptions :
Nationals from the following countries do not require work permits to seek employment in Egypt.
Sudan
Italy
Greece
Palestinian nationals

Restrictions:
Foreign Tour Guides, Belly Dancers will not be given permits to work in Egypt.

That looks like a completely new ratio to me (2:1) but only those locals count that have the same job description. Does that mean, if I want to hire a foreign instructor, I simultanously have to hire 2 egyptian instructors, even if I don´t need them at all? Other egyptian employees don´t count anymore? That´s complete nonsense!

The costs of 1500,00 LE/year contradict other information we have had so far.

And: what´s this about italian nationals don´t need a work permit?
If that were true, it would be surely easier to find an Italian speaking another european language, than finding an Egyptian.

Can anyone confirm this information?
The Sinai Peninsula: Work Permits for foreigners seeking work in Egypt

 

[macrobubble]

There are are other things that come to mind, reading this:

If it were true, than after three years there would be absolutely no foreigners working in Eygpt! Each job vacancy can only be filled by a foreigner once - and only for up to three years. Good bye Egypt for foreigners in 2014! Sorry, Crowley...

What about work permits for investors? They are not mentioned here. Does that also apply to them? can a foreign investor not work in his own company after 2014? Ridiculous!

On a side note:
Most of us will be deported anyway:

Revoking the work permit:
On application should ANY information be found to be false by either Employee or Employer the Work Permit will be cancelled.

Any foreign employee found to have committed any misdemeanor within the Egyptian legal system ie theft, graft, indecency, sharing apartment or hotel with non spouse, public disorder, defamation of national or religious belief, adulterous relationships, will instantly have the work permit revoked and the guilty party will be deported to the citizens country of origin.

So, you can´t live with your boy- or girlfriend if you´re not married!

This thing raises more questions, than it gives answers...

 

[Ste Wart]

That is completely impractical to adhere to.

Say you hire a Foreign Course Director. That person cannot train the 2 Egyptian staff up to be Course Directors, only to IDC staff. What's supposed to happen then? The dive centre is supposed to pay for 2 Egyptians to sit the CDTC?