Work permit situation and a ramble

[diverLux]

Why italians and Greek don't need work permits ?
Well, Italian and greek communities have always been in close contact with Egypt since ancient times by living there, working and trading. Remember the Rosetta Stone was also written in greek language, Cleopatra and Marcus Antonius were a couple. The famous egyptian singer Dalida was an italian girl.
These communities know and like each other well. There is mutual respect and the egyptian authorities just simply acknowledge and honor that fact .

 

[macrobubble]

And who´s gonna pay for the training costs?
Educational material (books, DVDs etc.), certification fees, personal DAN-insurances...
Are we to also give language courses now, because they are part of the required skills?
Are we then not only diving instructors, but also language teachers?
Or do we have to send the "trainees" to a language school and pay for it?

This whole concept is one big laugh!
Imagine Mercedes in Cairo, if they have to employ an Egyptian for quality control, which is now surely been done by a german. After only three years of training the "trainee" must do a job that required half a lifetime of study and experience?
I am sure, since this effects not only diving, big companies and big hotels, travel agents and other international corporations will shake their heads in disbelieve. Any investor will think twice about investing in Egypt, having to rely on an unskilled labour force with 60% that can´t read or write, and which they have to bring up to the required level in only three years. In many areas that´s absolutely impossible!

If they go through with this (which I don´t believe), after 2014 Egypt will have lost more companies, more investors, more money and in the end more jobs than they can imagine right now.

But maybe this statement is a hoax...

 

[String]

Italy and Greece not needing permits? That's just bizarre and nonsensical.

People today have been quoted 6000 LE for a work permit which can be obtained in 2 weeks. From September its €1000 a year.

So that's another independent lawyer/advisor saying exactly the same thing so does seem to be true.

As is so often with Egypt they simply haven't thought things through - they get an idea, push it ahead without thinking what will happening 1 year, 2 years, 5 years down the line or the side-effects of a decision.

In 3-4 years time expect a large increase in diving incidents, standards will drop, there'll be no experienced staff at all and the tourists will stay away. It'll be another tea-bagging dip 'n' dry place.

 

[Solly]

As is so often with Egypt they simply haven't thought things through - they get an idea, push it ahead without thinking what will happening 1 year, 2 years, 5 years down the line or the side-effects of a decision.

In 3-4 years time expect a large increase in diving incidents, standards will drop, there'll be no experienced staff at all and the tourists will stay away. It'll be another tea-bagging dip 'n' dry place.

why do you always look on the worst case scenario...?

The situation now is helping non skilled staff ... their presence is not harming a lot as there are other skilled staff (non-Egyptians) who will cover the needs...

However if we think fair for a moment, this situation might push dive centers to really train local staff in a better way ... sure there might be a drop, however skilled staff will start to increase in number as they see an opportunity to have a decent jobs for well qualified staff

Speculations are not always accurate, if I remember well your speculation when the demonstrations started that it will take a couple of days and everything will end up with no real change however this was proven wrong as days went by ... so why not think this will turn fine somewhere in the future?

 

[Vassilis Vlachopoulos]

Why italians and Greek don't need work permits ?
Well, Italian and greek communities have always been in close contact with Egypt since ancient times by living there, working and trading.

In addition, I believe there are bi-lateral agreements for Egyptians to work in Greece - most crew on fishing boats are Egyptians. (The same possibly applies for Italy too)

 

[Crowley]

I've been offline for a few days and this argument could go round and around in circles for the next few years. I think we all have our opinions and made our points (several times) and it's great we haven't started throwing broken bottles at each other!

What I was taken by though - was the statement about belly dancers being exceptions to the working regulations... I am glad they are getting a look-in also...!

Cheers,

C.

 

[supergaijin]

This has been an interesting thread to follow.

I believe that the training agencies need to step up in these areas. It is no secret that courses in certain areas are faster, cheaper and easier than ever before. An agency like PADI or SSI needs to step in to assure some quality control BEFORE the accidents start to happen.

I have worked in a few places around the world and consider myself an instructor with experience. Working in certain areas (ie. SE ASIA), a quality course was difficult if not downright impossible with dodgy gear, lack of materials, lack of access to certain divesites (ie. putting an OW2 student in an area with strong current or arse viz), a schedule to follow which doesn't allow for personal differences (ie.the 3 day OW course combined with an AOW course).

To a certain point, the onus is on the individual instructor to STOP certifying people who can't dive. The OW license is a potential killer in the hands of more and more clients that walk in to our dive centers. OTOH, the divecenters dictate the conditions that we work in. Where a DC doesn't actually make a profit on an OW course but needs at least an OW/AOW package to see profit leads to dangerous divers.

No instructor to my knowledge wants to do a poor course however if they don't deliver in the timeframe required by the DC, they're out of a job.

But again, my question is: What are the licensing agencies doing about it? How much would it take for a roundup of DMs or Instructors to weed out those who obviously have no clue on basic dive theory- in any language?

This seriously needs to happen not just in Sharm, but in pretty much every SE Asian country, I've worked in (Malaysia, Thailand and the Phils)

ps. Good luck Sharmers!

 

[gehadoski]

I doesn't matter how many dives you have under your belt, or where you dove. You may have a huge experience in diving and excellent diver, but not that good in instructing. You don't have the talent of delivering the knowledge. This doesn't mean that you are bad diver, it doesn't mean also because you are foreigner, you are better than the locals (Egyptians). You may have a customer who doesn't speak any language but Arabic. I am sure this will be an obstacle for the foreigners whom are working in Sharm or Red Sea area. Same goes the other way around, and it happened with me once, I had a group of three who wanted to dive and they were Korean. I compromised, but I am sure that if I have an instructor or DM who knows Korean language life will be much easier and better.

I have dove in may places too, I dove in Mediterranean Sea in very difficult conditions. very limited viz, High waves, High tidal currents. Simply in extreme conditions. In this conditions I had varies customers from different parts in all over the world. My job is to make satisfied. I'm not an instructor not because I am not good enough, but because I don't want to be an instructor. I know that I don't have that talent. But in guiding and navigation when you dive with customers in water with viz of 3m I can assure you that I am very competing in this.

I don't know about regulations of the work permit, but I am sure that if anyone wants to work in any place (in or outside Egypt) must have a work permit or they will be staying illegally.

 

[Crowley]

Good points well made -

For Supergaijin's post - there has been much prior discussion about agencies policing their operators but I don't think this is actually possible. As an analogy - it would be like the Ford motor company trying to police all drivers of Ford cars to make sure they were driven correctly, within local legal regulations and speed limits, and serviced properly according to the manual. PADI (for example) has a Quality Assurance process in place and I've two people go through the procedure for minor violations and they were pretty rigorous in dealing with it; if enough people complain to Ford about their cars, action will be taken.

Two problems - when it comes to dive guiding, there is no agency that represents this. Yes there are liability issues if you are not a certified professional, but there is nothing illegal about an open water diver guiding some friends on a dive site they have come to visit. Of course this person would never be employed in the dive industry, but technically, in many locations, you don't even need to have ever been in the water to go diving - there are people who rent or buy some gear and just do it. There are PADI divers, instructors and Divemasters, but there is no "dive guide" certification. I'm a PADI instructor when I'm teaching, but I am a dive shop dive guide when I'm working the boats.

Secondly - many customers don't know that they even have something to complain about. Many holiday recreational divers are not experienced, don't ask questions and assume that everything will be okay because they are in the hands of a "professional", and then come to a centre that does it all properly and safely and are amazed at the difference. Whilst other professionals might be horrified at the practices of certain dive centres is tropical locations with a transient customer base, most people don't even know they are being short changed.

And this is also not particular to the Red Sea.

For gehadoski's post - being of any nationality doesn't make you a better instructor or divemaster or anything - but - the more expensive training available to those that can afford it is not always within the budget of the national population that work there - Egypt, Thailand, Philippines, Caribbean, wherever, the simple and sad fact is that the people who live there cannot afford the training. There are plenty of foreign dive guides here in Egypt that I would like to be surgically extracted from the water, preferably with an explosive harpoon. My argument is, and always has been, that for the industry to work here in Egypt, right now, foreign staff are a requirement.

Cheers

C.

 

[gehadoski]

Exactly Crowley,
Here in Egypt there are limited number of people (Egyptians) how dive professionally (certified and passionate about diving), but even if, we cannot depend on them totally we still need foriegners to work with us. Foriegners who are working here in Egypt, they are like ambassadors of their countries here. To find a service that is provided by a person of the same nationality as yours and talk in the same language and has the same culture background is a great thing and comforting. This will help customers (Divers) to get their service while being comfortable. Also, They know exactly the correct way to promote for the diving in the Red Sea in their countries.