Work permit situation and a ramble

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The big centres with the relationships with the travel angencies? For sure they need the foreign staff. People go specifically to those centres to be trained in, or guided by, fluent speakers of their own language. Egyptians do seem to have a talent for languages and for sure I have met plenty who can DM a boat... but teach OW or Rescue or even DM in fluent German? Sorry, few and far between and valuable staff to have.

For me here in Sharm - what would happen if all the foreign staff left? Many divers would leave Sharm. Would that really matter? Nope, because actually as a percentage of overall income for sharm, it would leave a hole, but one I think could be easily filled. The glass-bottomed boats and submarines make more money per day than all the big dive centres combined.

The thing is - I can feel it here now. I feel a little let down that I followed the revolution closely. believed in it, lost work and money and friends because of it; went and danced in the streets when it all ended...

...and the end result is a campaign to drive my friends and I out of here. Yay.

So there are rumours of a march on Sharm on Friday 15th - and we shall wait and see what happens.

C.

See, it all pours in favor of linguistic abilities :wink:

Man, what about the English-only speaking non-locals? Those are plenty, right?

No one wants to drive you out. People want dive operators to stick to the law, which is 10% foreigners. That's it. Put yourself in their shoes. You see an English-only speaking foreign instructor working, while you, the local, are not! And you can guide and teach pretty well in English.

On the other hand, I know for sure that locals are starting to enhance their linguistic abilities. Actually a language course has started a couple of days ago in Sharm.

To be fair, the other major issue when it comes to locals vs foreigners is the attitude. Some locals are said to be "not compatible" with the guest standards. I believe this is a solvable matter.
 
:confused:

Sorry you asked me to make a point on identical candidates with different language abilities. The variable of dive experience was not part of your query. Hence why I didn't answer it.

Sorry, I just thought it was obvious that the travel experience was hooked up with the one language guy when I said in post 12: "Who would you hire? An instructor with 3 languages or an instructor with the same years of experience and certification level, dove "elsewhere", yet with only one language?"
 
Besides, the red sea is like diving in a swimming pool anyway :wink:

Nice point! Since it's pretty easy to dive here, why do you think an instructor with experience only here is not way enough? I understand that an instructor with Red Sea, Thailand, Malaysia and/or Indonesia work experience is probably not the best bet for a UK-based operation. However, he should be just fine in one of those areas.
 
Nice point! Since it's pretty easy to dive here, why do you think an instructor with experience only here is not way enough? I understand that an instructor with Red Sea, Thailand, Malaysia and/or Indonesia work experience is probably not the best bet for a UK-based operation. However, he should be just fine in one of those areas.

Agreed most Instructors do move around those areas with relative ease.

I think once you work outside the Red Sea you see a broader picture of diving. For example I've been on 'cancelled' Thistlegorm charters where I've had to baulk at the decision to turn round and head back to port, because I've dived in rougher weather in Australia.
I've had colleagues in Dahab talk about strong currents at the Canyon, just after I've got back from working in Mozambique.

Whereabouts have you dived Shadow?
 
I am pretty sure I will make some people angry with what I am going to write, but let´s be frank:

The vast majority of egyptian DMs and instructors I have seen, listened to or experienced are somewhere between completely incompetent and badly trained. Sure, there are exceptions, but by far not enough to fill all the vacant spots if all foreigners were to leave.

I have repeatedly listened to (so called) "theory lessons", to be held under an umbrella at the Lighthouse in Dahab. The students never see the inside of a proper classroom. Theory exams being held between a sandwich and a cup of tea on the beach. These students are shown the DVD (if they´re lucky), given the book in their language and the instructor simply hopes that there will be no further, complicated questions - which he probably can not answer correctly anyway.
Most of those guys had an understanding of diving theory that did not exceed that of a well trained Open Water Diver. In barely understandable english they trained french, germans, swedish or russians, who most likely didn´t grasp half of what was said.
I have seen DMs who had no bouyancy control whatsoever! Lying in the corals on their back, waving for some poor beginners to follow, or diving 10 or more meters in front of their group, having no clue about proper supervision.
I have listened to briefings that were a joke, were it not so sad.
Environmental awareness is an unknown subject to most of them. They let their divers walk on the reef, touch anything they find interesting and throw their cigarette butts in the sea or on the beach.
During lunch they tend to separate themselves, speak rather with friends (directly or on the mobile) than entertain their (paying!) customers, ending a diving day as early as possible - preferabely being back in the divecenter before 3:00 pm. And the first thing they ask is: "Do you still need me?".
Most of them have no understanding about the work ethics of a DM or an instructor and learned to dive simply because it seemed the easiest way to make a good salary. They are not in it with their heart, but only for the money.

Yes, of course there are others, very good ones - but they are of course under permanent emplyoment already. If you try to hire an egyptian DM or instructor, at least 9 out of 10 are completely useless for this job. That is the sad reality! Believe me, I wish it were different! Most divecenter owners would prefere to employ local staff to avoid the hassle of work permits etc. But you simply don´t find enough truly qualified egyptians for the job. Why do you think that the quality of diver training has gone down the drain during the last decades? Crash courses with unqualified instructors (that is NOT purely an egyptian problem!), looking for the fast money instead demanding quality and just counting numbers. More students, more money - damn work ethics! The student can´t breath without mask? What the fu... - shall the next guy diving with the poor sod take care of that, not my problem. Do they ever FAIL a student? Tell a paying customer "sorry, you didn´t fullfill the requirements!". Of course not! They just lower the requirements...

Then comes the question of language. Ask around among your customers and you will find that 90% choose the center to make their OWD specifically because they wanted to be trained in their own language. How many egyptian instructors do you think are able to teach fluently in french, german or russian? How many egyptian DMs can give a proper briefing in these languages?

The diving industry in Egypt will collaps without foreigners! Divers will travel to destinations where they can find the quality of training and service they have a right to demand and where someone speaks their language.

I would suggest to make it mandatory for each center to train at least one egyptian to the level of instructor to fill vacancies in the future. But I would also make it mandatory for this candidate to learn at least one foreign language to a level that allows teaching students!
 
I can understand that a DM is signed off, but when an instructor (I believe you're talking PADI, which means IDC + IE) is terribly incompetent to the level you've mentioned, then seriously it's the problem of the agency. I know you said it's not purely an Egyptian problem, and I'd add that, despite all these practices, the numbers are declining. Actually the highest numbers ever were back in 2004. In 2009 alone, PADI experienced a 5.74% decline. Add to that the sad fact that every couple of months there's a whole bunch of new instructors. So in conclusion, less certificates and more instructors. What do you expect?

The diving industry might collapse in Egypt, but not because of the foreigners leaving (no one said they're leaving BTW). However, I don't think other destinations will offer better value for money. Dive operators will always tend to cut cost, since there's a lot of supply (instructors) and declining demand. Moreover, as Crowley highlighted, diving is not the most important thing for places like Sharm and Hurghada (where the bigger numbers are). It's different in Dahab, though.
 
On the point for languages - in tourist locations, that's how it works. Lack of experience will be made up for verrrry quickly. Sorry, but that's how it is, don't shoot the messenger.

I got lucky - and I am the last English-only speaker that was hired by my dive centre. This was occasioned by the fact that my dive centre had recently acquired a deal with a british tour operator, and also that I had trained one of their other instructors. :D

And actually, I can do pretty well in German thanks - in the same way as many Egyptian dive guides, I can run a boat without having to speak English - but I can't teach Open Water. As for my Arabic, I am ashamed to say it's very poor, but I am not linguistically talented but at least I can communicate with our captains and bus drivers - it's very basic, but I do try.

There is indeed a significant contingent of english-only staff in Sharm. Many of those have been here for years, from an era when Sharm was - or at least its dive centres were - not as multi-lingual as today. I would suggest that multi-lingual instructors are in the majority these days. There are still jobs for english-only speakers, but for they are getting harder to find.

And Shadow - when you say that nobody wants us out - sorry but that's not true. I am all for the 10% rule being enforced; I was under the assumption that it already was, actually - at least, that seems to be the case in Sharm. There is, however a vociferous minority that wants us all out.

We live here and work here because we love it - pure and simple - this is not a job to do nor a country to live in if you don't love it. Sharm El Sheikh is built on foreign tourism; it's the only reason it exists. Foreign divers were recruited by first the Israeli and subsequently the Egyptian governments to promote diving in the region, and it's only the last 6 years that it got really silly. All the other diving hotspots in Egypt grew from that, as did the all-inclusive beer drinking holiday resort things that fill Sharm to overflowing these days. Hundreds of thousands of jobs and dollars generated from something that was, to a large extent, popularised by European dive tourism.

As a foreign dive tourist and now employee, I do not wish to sound like I feel I am therefore owed something for these reasons.

I'm not taking anything; most of my money goes straight back into the Egyptian economy (albeit though some of it may have been previously recycled in the UAE courtesy of Al Ahram breweries and fine Sakara beer); what I would like is the opportunity to do something that I love in a place I love to do it, without somehow feeling that I am not welcome here.

As for the quality of Egyptian guides and instructors? There is a great deal of talent and quality out there. I know this, because I work with some of them. There is also a great deal of ignorance and malpractice and sadly I see this coming mostly from the Egyptian DMs. For the named diving centres, this is not the case, and I've seen plenty of foreign dive staff doing stupid things, but there's this whole market of "book in the hotel, do a day's diving trip in Ras Mohamed" which means "you'll get 20 minutes scuba intro experience in Marsa Bareika (which is off limits to divers) with badly fitting gear in a short wetsuit in the middle of january" and this is the kind of operation where the casually signed off DM resides.

I speak only from what I see, and of course I don't see everything, but diving three times a day in the national park gives me a valid opinion, I think, much as I dislike having to write it. I hope Shadow and Solly and Co. don't take offence.

With or without us foreign folk as staff, Sharm will survive, Egpyt will find that, after the revolution, the poor will be a little less poor but still poor, the rich will be - as always - a little bit more rich, and the people in the middle will tell all of their friends on facebook. Just like any revolution in any country, just like the 80's rock band repeating the same old chords in a slightly different order to the last track on the album: Status Quo.

I'm quite happy here, thank you very much, I'd like to stay.

Sakaras are on me,

C.
 
And Shadow - when you say that nobody wants us out - sorry but that's not true. I am all for the 10% rule being enforced; I was under the assumption that it already was, actually - at least, that seems to be the case in Sharm. There is, however a vociferous minority that wants us all out.

At least nobody here wants you out :)

Well, on the official level, the Syndicate of Egyptian Dive Professionals has submitted the required papers to the authorities and is now under construction with a temporary board, until the elections take place. The first statement is already released. One of the points it discusses is the foreign staff, which is welcome within the 10% ratio. So officially, no one wants you out.
 
Thank you Shadow - I appreciate that a lot - and I hope Egyptian SB posters understand which side of the fence I am sitting on.

As per my previous post, I have no problem whatsoever with the 10:1 rule, I don't want to work without a permit... I tried in Thailand, it was expensive and didn't work out, I tried in the Caribbean, my paperwork got lost, I tried in Egypt and I got one - actually I was very happy about that! :D

Peace

C.
 
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