Work permit situation and a ramble

[macrobubble]

The 10:1 rule simply doesn´t work for small operations.
If you need 2 foreigners, you would have to employ 20 egyptians! That is unfeasable for a small divecenter. Or would you only want the big ones to survive? Especially in Dahab, were you don´t need to employ boat crews and have many small operations, it is impossible to work with that ratio. The current 10:3 ratio is much more fair for divecenters and should be continued. Otherwise some small centers will have to close down which will create exactely Zero jobs for egyptians!

 

[Ste Wart]

The 10:1 rule simply doesn´t work for small operations.
If you need 2 foreigners, you would have to employ 20 egyptians! That is unfeasable for a small divecenter. Or would you only want the big ones to survive?

Wasn't/ Isn't that one of the problems with CDWS, that some of the board members are actually the owners of big dive centres in Sharm? Why would they want the little guy when they can run cattle dive boats?

Although there's a few small dive centres that could do with going in Dahab; Penguin divers spring to mind.

 

[Red Sea Shadow]

Thank you Shadow - I appreciate that a lot - and I hope Egyptian SB posters understand which side of the fence I am sitting on.

As per my previous post, I have no problem whatsoever with the 10:1 rule, I don't want to work without a permit... I tried in Thailand, it was expensive and didn't work out, I tried in the Caribbean, my paperwork got lost, I tried in Egypt and I got one - actually I was very happy about that!

Peace

C.

And we have another bingo

As you mentioned; tried Thailand - expensive and didn't work, tried Caribbean - lost papers, tried Egypt - worked!

I understand it's not a straight forward process, and actually changes might take place after the revolution, but at least it works, which means it's still better than other tropical locations.

Now the question is: why's everyone (you NOT included) mad about the fact that Egypt enforced its own RIGHT to protect the local labor?

 

[macrobubble]

Now the question is: why's everyone (you NOT included) mad about the fact that Egypt enforced its own RIGHT to protect the local labor?

1 - it were the foreigners who created that industry in the first place. Without foreigners there simply wouldn´t be that kind of dive industry in Egypt! For three decades, nobody enforced this right, because foreigners were needed. Everybody, including the authorities, knew that foreigners were working not according to the law but it was tolerated out of necessity. Now, and that started even before the revolution and has nothing to do with it, some people feel the time has come to take over. Foreigners were good enough to build up the industry - some egyptians now want to get rid of them and harvest the profits.

2 - many foreigners have invested their life savings in Egypt and their future will be completely destroyed by what is going on right now. They came here not to harm anyone or to take advantage of anybody - they just wanted to earn a living. That is increasingly made impossible.
BTW: I have during the last years met and spoke to quite a few DMs and instructors. It is interesting to see that as an average it is the egyptian run operations that pay the lowest salaries and freelancer fees! Egyptian DMs earn in average more in foreign owned operations than in those run by their own countrymen. Foreigners simply pay better as a rule of the thumb - and they pay the same wages to foreign and egyptian DMs! So far for unfair treatment...

3 - as I wrote before: there are simply not enough well trained egyptian DMs and instructors with the needed language skills. Many foreign DMs will be replaced by locals who unfortunately offer less quality, less enthusiasm and finally less safety to the clients. Courses will be held in broken english for students that themselves don´t speak english very well. That is not the kind of training I would want to have as a customer.

4 - such changes, even if in principle justified by egyptian law, should not come over night. After decades in which the law was ignored by egyptians there should be a transitional period to give the operations time to adjust to a new situation. What happens now does not look and feel like implementing the rule of law, but rather like a hostile takeover. People came here to establish businesses based on a framework that was in place since the mid-seventies. Changing the rules of the game over night is simply not fair and violates the trust the foreigners had in the system and in the feeling that they are welcome. It is pretty hard right now to feel welcome in Egypt as a foreigner working in the dive industry!

5 - I am convinced that these actions will not result in more jobs for egyptians, but in less. The number of divers will further go down as they will be looking for alternative destinations where their demands for quality and language skills are met. Don´t underestimate the power of the internet! Reviews there will be bad, people will communicate and a further declining reputation of Egypt as a diving destination will be the result. Dive centers will have to close and jobs will be lost. Demanding all and now will be counterproductive!

 

[Red Sea Shadow]

1 - it were the foreigners who created that industry in the first place. Without foreigners there simply wouldn´t be that kind of dive industry in Egypt! For three decades, nobody enforced this right, because foreigners were needed. Everybody, including the authorities, knew that foreigners were working not according to the law but it was tolerated out of necessity. Now, and that started even before the revolution and has nothing to do with it, some people feel the time has come to take over. Foreigners were good enough to build up the industry - some egyptians now want to get rid of them and harvest the profits.

The foreigners who pioneered the industry (along with some Egyptians BTW) have already gained a lot! They now own some of the biggest operations. For three decades, they have been harvesting their well-earned profits. And now, no one is forcing them out. As an investor, you're most welcome to stay. Actually already-established operators have some sort of protection, as no new companies are allowed for at least one year from now, and this applies to Egyptians and foreigners.

2 - many foreigners have invested their life savings in Egypt and their future will be completely destroyed by what is going on right now. They came here not to harm anyone or to take advantage of anybody - they just wanted to earn a living. That is increasingly made impossible.
BTW: I have during the last years met and spoke to quite a few DMs and instructors. It is interesting to see that as an average it is the egyptian run operations that pay the lowest salaries and freelancer fees! Egyptian DMs earn in average more in foreign owned operations than in those run by their own countrymen. Foreigners simply pay better as a rule of the thumb - and they pay the same wages to foreign and egyptian DMs! So far for unfair treatment...

Again, no one is asking an investor to get out of the country! Regarding the pay, I can mention examples that go the other way around, so I won't generalize if I were in your shoes.

3 - as I wrote before: there are simply not enough well trained egyptian DMs and instructors with the needed language skills. Many foreign DMs will be replaced by locals who unfortunately offer less quality, less enthusiasm and finally less safety to the clients. Courses will be held in broken english for students that themselves don´t speak english very well. That is not the kind of training I would want to have as a customer.

Language courses are being held right now for the Egyptian staff (and for the foreign staff that wants to learn Arabic as far as I'm aware). It'll take some time, but at least the guys are on the right track.

4 - such changes, even if in principle justified by egyptian law, should not come over night. After decades in which the law was ignored by egyptians there should be a transitional period to give the operations time to adjust to a new situation. What happens now does not look and feel like implementing the rule of law, but rather like a hostile takeover. People came here to establish businesses based on a framework that was in place since the mid-seventies. Changing the rules of the game over night is simply not fair and violates the trust the foreigners had in the system and in the feeling that they are welcome. It is pretty hard right now to feel welcome in Egypt as a foreigner working in the dive industry!

The transition period was already there! Remember the 10:3 "rule" by CDWS? It should have given you a hint. Perhaps it's not enough, but take into consideration that a revolution has taken place. Revolutions change things at a rapid pace, but no one is taking you over, frankly. As a foreign investor, you're most welcome. As a legal foreign worker, you're most welcome as well.

5 - I am convinced that these actions will not result in more jobs for egyptians, but in less. The number of divers will further go down as they will be looking for alternative destinations where their demands for quality and language skills are met. Don´t underestimate the power of the internet! Reviews there will be bad, people will communicate and a further declining reputation of Egypt as a diving destination will be the result. Dive centers will have to close and jobs will be lost. Demanding all and now will be counterproductive!

The Egyptians had enough of people telling them what to do and what to not do, really. Just let them do what they feel appropriate. BTW, the dive industry is not as big as people imagine. Crowley seems to know that pretty well.

 

[macrobubble]

As a foreign investor, you're most welcome. As a legal foreign worker, you're most welcome as well.

"At the Beginning, I like-2 mention that I was Right when I stated b4 that there wld b a Counter-Attack 2 b done by our Egyptian-Workers against their Legal & Illigal Foreign-Managments & Mates at the Majority of the Private-Sector’s Associations such-as the Hotels & Resorts plus the Dive & Aqua-Centers.Such Egyptian-Workers never had their Entire-Rights when It came-2 their Salaries & Xtras despite they wld work Better,Harder & Longer than the Foreign-Workers wld do.Simply It wld b because we as Local-People wld have in2 our Minds that we wld have-2 do our Best-Efforts at our Jobs 2 gain our Salaries & Xtras 2 support ourselves & Families while we wld have no Other-Sources of Income,but It wld b Different 4 the Foreign-Workers abit because they wld just do their Jobs 2 support themselves,not their families while they wld still gain their Countries’s Financial-Aid while they wld b registered at their Countries’s Files as Job-Less.Ironic! Such a Revolution wld have Plenty of Forms such-as the Recent-Claims at the Manpower-Offices that wld xist at all our Cities all over Egypt.At the Old-Days, the Manpower-Offices used not 2 stand-by the Egyptian-Side while It wld have the Right while they wld stand-by the Foreign-Side because they wld get Pribed.All of us as Local-People knew that Bull****,but It began-2 change Step by Step 2wards the Correct-Direction that sld b there a Long-Time ago.Due-2 our Egyptian White-Revolution, our Eyes began-2 c the Reality which wld b that we wld b Stronger than those Foreign-Managers & Mates as they wld shake out of a Fear whenever they wld hear that our Manpower-Offices wld start-2 wipe them out Sooner or Later 2 give Plenty of Job-Opportunities 2 our Job-Less People that wld deserve 2 get their Chances as-well 2 survive at their Home-Country (Egypt) & not 2 travel-away 2 b humiliated at both the East (Gulf & Australia) & West (Europe & America)-Countries.Here I urge all the Egyptian-Workers 2 report all the Misbehaviour & Misconduct of their Foreign-Managers & Mates 2 our Manpower-Offices & even 2 our Ministry of Tourism 2 clean that Waste & kick It out of Egypt 2 go in a Right-Way 4 our Future…"
Egyptian professional Divers

Doesn´t really sound like it, does it?
It´s insulting, full of hatred and factually wrong as in any european country you can only recieve unemployment benefits if you reside inside the country and visit the labour office at a regular basis (mostly once a week). If you want to leave the country (even for holiday), you must seek permission! People who read this are deliberately fed misinformation to agitate them in a certain direction. It is targeted even at legal foreigners and they should be "wiped out". I find this statement very troublesome...

 

[Red Sea Shadow]

Doesn´t really sound like it, does it?
It´s insulting, full of hatred and factually wrong as in any european country you can only recieve unemployment benefits if you reside inside the country and visit the labour office at a regular basis (mostly once a week). If you want to leave the country (even for holiday), you must seek permission! People who read this are deliberately fed misinformation to agitate them in a certain direction. It is targeted even at legal foreigners and they should be "wiped out". I find this statement very troublesome...

Come on, this is nothing official. Even the group's name is not written correctly!

It's purely a personal opinion. And as you see, no one even commented on this post. If we're gonna trace personal opinions, you'll find foreigners saying crap about Egyptians, and of course the other way around. Remember the blog aiming at defaming CDWS? What was it saying about Egyptians?

To cut it short, the official stand is nothing against investors and legal workers. The official statement from the Syndicate of Egyptian Dive Professionals is nothing against investors and legal workers. The people; you might find aggressive posts like the one you referred to, but again, it goes both ways.

 

[Ste Wart]

Ok.

I'd like to take this out of Egypt full stop and make it more global concern.

Let's look at the reality of work permits.

The average instructor lasts for 2 seasons. Are we really expected in that short time frame and low pay bracket to shell out for work permits as well? Why can't we be classed as seasonal staff or such like? And therefore circumvent the need for work permits.

Personally I left Egypt because of the work permit situation. I worked freelance in Dahab and faced the prospect of trying to get full time with a dive centre when I was still only a regular. (there's a few tiers of who gets what in Dahab, I wasn't that high up). So I left.

I ended going to Malaysia, where I'd worked previously without a work permit, no issue, we just hid from the immigration when they were coming to the island, but it was only for 3 months. This time the shop insisted I get one. Therefore I started to shell out for it, in the meantime I still had to make visa runs while the application was being processed. So when I left at the end of the season I legally worked for 3 months out of the 8 I was there. Pointless. Although it is still valid until july 2012.

Crow talks about issues in Thailand. They've really clamped down and now it's nigh on 1000 euros for work visa. I have the odd mate who still works on Koh Phi Phi doing visa runs, but for those in Phuket immigration has cracked down and most have legit work visas.

I've worked in Honduras, where no-one gives a crap as long as your tourist visa hasn't expired. I struggled to find a foreigner with a work visa.

I know that Mexico is pretty tough on work permits. Cayman islands require criminal records checks and medicals. etc etc

All of these things add up. And when you look at the cost of becoming an instructor, travelling to a destination, buying new kit, insurance, renewal fees and upgrading instructor ratings. You really do wonder how the hell you're supposed to afford it.

I'm not asking for special dispensation for working as a dive instructor, just stating the plain fact. We won't be in your respective countries for long. We'll spend most of our pathetic wages in the bar. And leave a little older, a little fatter, maybe with an STD or 2 an no one will notice because some newbie has already filled our spot in the dive centre.

 

[Red Sea Shadow]

The thing is, diving is not rocket science. It's more of a blue collar job. What excuses will the governments give to their own people when they ask them; why are you making it easier for foreigners to have these jobs that require... nothing special. Governments must give tangible answers, example: languages. Telling the masses that that the foreigners will spend their not-so-high income here in bars, etc. won't help much.

 

[macrobubble]

The thing is, diving is not rocket science. It's more of a blue collar job. What excuses will the governments give to their own people when they ask them; why are you making it easier for foreigners to have these jobs that require... nothing special.

You see, that´s the difference!
European instructors and DMs would not survive in this business with that attitude. A competent DM or instructor must realize that is job is something special. Having responsibility for the life of a customer, making the most valued time of the year for them special, being interested in constantly expanding and updating your own knowledge (diving theory is a developing "science"), being able to teach, using the proper educational methods (actually there are CMAS ITCs which you can only pass if you attend pedagogical seminars and read mantadory educational literature), having a broad knowledge of diving in a variety of conditions (what would an egyptian DM or instructor answer, if ask by a beginner about diving in cold or fresh water or even under ice, in caves or generally in other destinations - beginners ask all kind of questions). If a european instructor lacks in those areas, a proper center would fire him without hesitation or nor employ him in the first place - try doing that to an egyptian, he would cry "unfair, rasicm" etc.).

No, being a diving professional is definitely no a blue collar job like cleaning a hotel room. But of course that only applies, if you have to correct attitude towards what you are doing and are not doing it only for monetary reasons. For an egyptian, being a DM is a very high paying job. That´s an amount he can make per month he can not make in any other job that easily without higher education. For any european, working as a DM or even instructor is a measly paid hobby which most of them have taken up out of enthusiasm. Most of them could make much more money in a lot of fields, working in their home countries. The picture that some try to paint, that all europeans working in the diving industry in Egypt are unemployed, low class people who couldn´t find a proper job in Europe is absolutely wrong and an insult!

I say it again: as long as there are not enough egyptians with the same level of competence as we can find in the tousands of european DMs or instructors (and there are many, many europeans applying for a job that are rejected for the above stated reasons), substituting foreigners with egyptians will decrease the level of quality of the industry here. That´s not racism or arrogance - that´s unfortunately a fact. I also say again, to make that very clear, if there are enough egyptians on the required level of professionalism, I am all for giving them the jobs, because it would actually make more sense businesswise. Most owners are no fools. They make decisions not based on some obscure reasons, but rather based on a logical approach. Hiring egyptians would be easier, less hassle in terms of bureaucracy and even less expensive, because you would not have to pay them tickets etc. on top of a salary. Mind you, that has nothing to do with equal pay for equal work, it´s just additional costs any european generates. And still there is the question of language skills...