Wondering what happened?

[Wildcard]

Some people can make them selves pass out by simply holding there breath. Little kids do it all the time. This is done without CO2 flushing. Im simply saying that this dosent fit the guidelines of a true SWB.
Now it is possable that knowing he was going to be doing a breath hold exersise, he did infact hyperventalate prior. It's hard to armchair quarterback these things without having all the facts or having a medicaly trained observer there the whole time. Also not addressed was the issue of wether or not he still had cardiac activity. I will assume yes, but in any drowning, that is kind of an important issue too. Irregardless, the Inst should be shot....
Now let me go read your link, looks intresting.
OK, it says exactly what I was saying, this is not SWB.

 

[TSandM]

If you read what I wrote, I posited that it was possible that he was overventilating prior to the breath-hold, either in anticipation or as a general effect of using a regulator when he is not accustomed to doing it.

Most people are exquisitely sensitive to high CO2 levels -- it is our primary drive to breathe. People with chronic lung disease adapt to CO2 levels that would drive the rest of us nuts. I have read that some divers appear to exhibit a similar adaptation. I would not expect this in someone merely learning to dive, but I suppose it's conceivable that a given individual, either through a less sensitive drive or the determination to do the breath-hold, could tolerate increased CO2 long enough to drop their blood oxygen level enough to pass out. It doesn't take that long, particularly if the individual is exercising at the time.

Other possibilities? He could have had an arrhythmia while underwater, although it's unlikely that an arrhythmia that would result in him being unresponsive and cyanotic would spontaneously convert without any therapy (but it's possible). He could have thrown a blood clot to his lungs (no history to suggest this). He could have had a massive MI, but he wouldn't have come around just from a little mouth-to-mouth.

On the basis that the simplest explanation that fits the facts is the most likely, he was able to hold his breath (possibly due to a decreased CO2 level to begin with) long enough to pass out. It is a similar mechanism to shallow water blackout, although in this case, the falling pO2 of ascent did not play a role.

 

[DandyDon]

I would tend to disagree with the shalow water black out therory. You have to be deep first then be assending to shallow water. As the PP02 falls, syncopy occurs. That is the basis of SWB. This sounds more like simply holding ones breath too long.
This instructor needs to be reported to his agancy and his card revoked. What he did and failed to do could be considered criminal. Every near drowning MUST be evaluated in the ER even if the person is feeling fine after.

Thank you!! I didn't think so either, but was hoping someone with more credibility would say so.

 

[Wildcard]

TSnM is the expert but we seem to be on the same basic track here. Too many thing that could have caused this that needed to be evaluated right away by health care providers.
I may have over looked you observation about the hyperventlation but that too is my biggest suspect here. Still, it does not fit the guidelines of a true SWB.

 

[H2Andy]

Wildcard, TSandM:

is it true that little kids (or anyone) can pass out by holding their breath?

i thought this was impossible -- the urge to breathe is just too strong

 

[Wildcard]

In thinking more about my statement about little kids, if they are holding there breath untill passing out, I will go ahead and make the assumption that thet were having a tantrum and screaming first. This would be a form of hyperventolation. I know it can be done but I don't think it is real common. A navy buddy was telling me about a breath holding UW swim test for distance that if you didn't make the distance but passed out UW, you would pass anyway.
TSand M, your thoughts?
BTW, Id like to know if the inst has been reported yet.

 

[TSandM]

Yeah, the usual 2 year old breath-hold event begins with screaming.

For most people, the drive to breathe will not permit breath-holding until loss of consciousness . . . IF the person doesn't hyperventilate first. But we used to play a game as kids where you hyperventilated and then held your breath to see if you'd faint -- it's not difficult to do that. And there ARE people who can override the CO2 response -- free divers have to learn to do it.

 

[H2Andy]

thanks ...

i can't fight the urge to breathe (hyperventilation aside, which i've never tried)

 

[PAL_7z]

All,

I so appreciate all of the responses. Last night I got a chance to discuss the situation with the person in charge of the facility. By the way the facility is a place like a YMCA. It is an IDEA class. I am going in on Saturday to pick up a copy of the incident report to give a copy of it to my family Doctor. They are going to refund my wife and I our money back for the class. The facilites director is also a Dive Master. He told me he has had conversations with the class instructor. He told me that the instructor is very shooken up by this. I listened to the Director - and I can try and be understanding about the situation. I am in a quandry about the whole thing... on one hand due to the way in which the excercise was carried out and the way in which it was handled when I was revived - I am upset. On the other hand -- due to his ability to perform first aid and revive me after an initial panic. According to my wife (he apparently did panic at first after bringing me up from the bottom). I am thankful. I understand the inital panic even -- he had never been in this type of situation.

I guess what I'm trying to say is my biggest problem is that the excercise and the procedures that were supposed to be followed after an emergency were not followed. That is what bugs me. I at least got to voice this to the director.

I took the advice from many of your comments and voiced them in my conversation to him and said that in the future that this excercise should be done either on a one on one basis or that it should be done stationary or as an instructor swim along.

I also verified that this was how it was supposed to be done. Instructor shuts off air....Student stays in place until air is depleted....then is to swim until they are unable to swim anymore. I am guessing that it was to show the student how far they are capable of going after they have run out of air. I did not learn what was to be said for this excercise -- I can only summize that it would show the student - hey look you can't go very far -- don't run low on air.

Now on to what some of you have posted about shallow water blackout and what I've been looking at based on your posting. When I was underwater breathing through my regulator....I thought that I was breathing normally. I did not think that I was hyperventilating. On one of the pages that I saw - I think it was wikipedia discussing swp it said that an adrenilin rush can bring about a decrease in CO2 without the person knowing it. I know that I was a bit anxious prior to this excercise. I had just seen everyone else go. I was having a bit of trouble with my regulator. I had told my instructor. It made a high pitched screeching noise on every breath both through the regulator and the octopus. It even screeched when filling the BC. He had said that this was OK. Not to worry. The only reason that I bring this up now is to for 2 reasons 1. To see if this could be any cause in the situation and 2. That during the class we are told that if we ar uncomforable with our equipment we are supposed to speak up and say something. Then the person is supposed to take care of it. I was ready to get out of the pool and get a new one. He had said it would be OK - we were just in the pool. Now on to the rest of the excercise. I was the last one to have my air turned off. The instructor had told us to swim as far as we could. I was by no means wanting to be a world class athlete. I am an average guy. I'm mid 30's, average height, don't swim very often. I usually just play in the pool in the summer with my kids. I am not a fitness buff. Heck I've got a bit around the midsection even. All I can say is that when I got to the end of the pool and turned around I thought that I could go further so I did. I figured he said go as far as you can go until you can't take it anymore -- then stand up. I never thought something like this could happen or I would never have continued. All I know is that when I thought I was going to go up I never did. Next thing I remember - I was awoken by the mouth to mouth.

My wife was the one that alerted the instrutor that something was wrong. Due to the fact the excercise was started in 6 foot of water. There was a short girl that did not get very far. The instructor was about 4 or 5 lanes away tending to her air tank when I was under water. Apparently he needed to turn her air on so she could inflate her BC. Our BC had to be completey deflated prior to the excercise. My wife was right beside this girl. He was - according to my wife also just kind of talking to her. My wife then asked him "Where is ____" underscore is my name. He just said oh he is over there I saw him turn around. My wife said - I think something is wrong - You need to go get him.

I thouroughly believe that if my wife did not think about me at that moment - or had waited - or had asked him to turn on her air to make her more comfortable. I might not be here writing this. I give the instructor credit for saving my life by giving me mouth to mouth. But I give the ULTIMATE CREDIT FOR SAVING MY LIFE TO MY WIFE for BEING MY DIVE BUDDY!!!!

As far as the instructor being turned in....The director said that he is unsure if he is ever going to teach again based on this event.

Again thanks for all your responses

Thanks,
PAL

 

[H2Andy]

I understand the inital panic even -- he had never been in this type of situation.

that's not a professional. period.

and he had more than one student doing this excercise at once? this
gets worse and worse

is this guy new?

i am very happy to hear that you are doing well, under the circumstances