Wings suitable for both double-7s and double-12s

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Yup. You need to be negative by the weight of the gas at the start of the dive, if you carry more gas you need to be more negative. In the case of tanks of similar empty buoyancy the gas it'self will cause you be more negative as the capacity increases.

Sorry if I failed to make that clear. It is this requirement for increased negative buoyancy with higher capacity tanks that dictates greater wing capacity.

Tobin

I dont get the "you need to be more negative" bit, that's where the issue lies.
With the 130's (assuming you dont change weighting), you *will* be X pounds heavier (assuming nothing else changes) -- you dont need to add more ballast to *get* that more negative -- the extra gas will do that for you.

Only concern is the initial negative buouyancy (for wing) and empty buoyancy of the tanks
 
I dont get the "you need to be more negative" bit, that's where the issue lies.
With the 130's (assuming you dont change weighting), you *will* be X pounds heavier (assuming nothing else changes) -- you dont need to add more ballast to *get* that more negative -- the extra gas will do that for you.

Only concern is the initial negative buoyancy (for wing) and empty buoyancy of the tanks

Well I'd hoped the post you quoted would have answered your question. When I use the term "negative" I mean exactly that, expressed another way is as you become more negative you will need to inflate you wing more just to stay at the surface at the start of the dive. This is the point I've been trying to communicate in a thread about wing selection. Larger tanks need larger wings because of the great weight of the gas, not the greater weight (potentially) of the tanks themselves.

At the end of the dive, i.e. shallow stop with essentially empty tanks you need to have enough ballast remaining to offset the positive buoyancy of your exposure suit, and in the case of buoyant tanks (al 80's) the buoyancy of your tanks.

This ballast is essentially anything you are carrying that does not float, backplate, regs, bands and manifold, can light empty negative tanks, weight belt etc.

It is prudent to allow for a couple extra lbs beyond what is required to offset your exposure suit in shrink wrapped condition. Why? the day you need ALL of your back gas is not the day you want to be shivering in a shrink wrapped suit during an extended shallow stop, the extra 2-3 lbs allows for inflation of your suit a bit.

As long as your exposure suit does not change, then this minimum ballast requirement does not change even if you change tanks. If the tanks are of similar buoyancy empty, then you need not alter anything, if the empty weights vary then some adjustment needs to be made to your weight belt typically.

What does change is how negative you will be at the start of the dive, more volume of gas means you will be more negative.

It is this effect, i.e. higher volume tanks = more negative at the start of the dive that will require a larger wing. This thread was originally about wing selection for two different volume tanks.

Keep in mind that this assumes no change in exposure suit, and that's often not the case when moving to larger tanks.

The diver who is currently diving a single modest sized tank, and is contemplating moving to a large single, or even doubles often thinks that they will add a big steel tank and take off their weight belt. What they often find is the longer / deeper exposures possible with large tanks require more buoyant exposure suits, and they will need both the big steel tank(s) and more ballast.

Limeyx do you use the same undies for a nitrox dive with 100's vs a 21/35 dive that requires your 130's?

Tobin
 
As long as your exposure suit does not change, then this minimum ballast requirement does not change even if you change tanks. If the tanks are of similar buoyancy empty, then you need not alter anything, if the empty weights vary then some adjustment needs to be made to your weight belt typically.

What does change is how negative you will be at the start of the dive, more volume of gas means you will be more negative.

It is this effect, i.e. higher volume tanks = more negative at the start of the dive that will require a larger wing. This thread was originally about wing selection for two different volume tanks.
...


Tobin

Yeah, this was what I understood, but from your posts it seemed you recommended something different. Definitely the wing needs to have more lift for tanks that contain heaver gas(more dense gas or larger quantities of same gas)

Limeyx do you use the same undies for a nitrox dive with 100's vs a 21/35 dive that requires your 130's?

yes, mostly. Generally for the type of diving I do, almost all are less than 70 mins, so it's determined by water temp not kind of dive right now (so in Seattle I dive the 400, in LA mostly the 200 and in mexico the bunnysuit)

If I was doing longer/shallower dives (2-3 hours) then I'd have to shift "up" a rung on the undergarment scale!
 
Yeah, this was what I understood, but from your posts it seemed you recommended something different. Definitely the wing needs to have more lift for tanks that contain heaver gas(more dense gas or larger quantities of same gas.

I went back and reread my earlier posts, and I have to agree, it's quite possible to interpret it differently. I think now there is little doubt.

Thanks,

Tobin
 
I went back and reread my earlier posts, and I have to agree, it's quite possible to interpret it differently. I think now there is little doubt.

Thanks,

Tobin

Yeah, when I started to parse your post (the "need" post) I saw we were on the same page, hence, my "what Tobin said" post.. The "need" threw me for a loop, but reading the rest, it is clear that as long as everything else stays the same, you'll be more negative with more gas and will "need" more lift because of that gas. Simple, really, even for a propeller-headed lawyer like me.
 
Try the APEKs WTX4 it's a 45 lbs (20kg) lift wing that is just built perfectly. You can also use it for large singles.

Aqua Lung: First to Dive

Its shape allows for a great butt up position.

Cheers
 
There's nothing more comfy than diving with D7's! They are not "tech" at all, really. Just lovely...

You can get a wing that fits for both D12 and D7, but not just any wing. Someone suggested the Evolve 40 in the beginning of the thread. I think the 7's are to short for that wing and the wing is not very optimized for anyting but the 12's (Which it is great for by the way, although I'm not the "Halcyon type", ha ha!)

Even with wide spacers the D7's are slimmer than a pair of 12's, so you might want to look at a wing that is not the widest. This rules out the Explorer too in my subjective point of vue.

I have some practical experience relayed to me from customers that has the DIR Zone 20 with wide D7's. It works great, as it does on my own D12's. That can be a choice, and I think you have easy access to them where you live too. Also AGIR might do the trick. Excellent quality.

I got a pair of D7's to my wife-to-be the other day. She doesn't know yet, but I have to make up for the new drysuit she doesn't know I got for myself anyways... :D
They are not wide though, so I put them on a DIR Zone CUB18, which is a perfect match.

*I sell DIR Zone. Just thought I'd tell before someone else... :eyebrow:
 
Even with wide spacers the D7's are slimmer than a pair of 12's, so you might want to look at a wing that is not the widest.

I was looking at a set of wide spaced D7s - the only worry I had was whether you could put a V-weight in there - does anyone know?
 
I was looking at a set of wide spaced D7s - the only worry I had was whether you could put a V-weight in there - does anyone know?

I have never seen it. I suppose the shape and angle of the tanks comes out differently than with D12's and most V-weights are made for D12's only. Supposedly a pair of D7's in 232 bar needs about the same amount of lead as a pair of 12's. I use a pair of weight pockets on my single tank rig. I suppose I will do the same with D7's (Same wing) since I don't use my cannister light other than when I use my D12's. I have a 2.5 kilo P-weight bolted in the BP. I understand you want more than this fixed, but remember the D7's are shorter. You may end up being top-heavy if you put your weights up to high. You should test this yourself though.
 
Actually, this seems like a simple enough answer, I assume there's no DIR reasons against this:

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http://cavediveflorida.com/Rum_House.htm

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