Will Shops & Instructors like this, or hate this?

[danvolker]

Got to this thread kinda late. My thoughts on this are no freaking way. If my customers or students want to be exposed to the "GUE/DIR" way of doing things, thats fine, they can go to a GUE shop and take a GUE class. For me to tell them to join in on this course because they will learn a better way to do things is the same as saying "hey, i did a piss poor job of teaching your classes, so why dont you take this course so you can learn the right way to dive." Every diver has a different way of doing things and none of them are the "RIGHT" way....its just their way. To claim that one way of doing things is better than the other is comparing apples to oranges.

Tom,
The idea here is NOT to make this a GUE marketing session....As you must be aware, most divers are not even remotely interested in attaining Exploration level Cave Diving skills, just to use in the ocean.
The idea is to take a series of basic skills most recreational divers need, but do not have, and show them this....i.e., too many do not know they are too heavy, that they are leaving 100 yards of silt behind them, that there is anything at all wrong with the way they are diving...or that there is a better way....Giving them a Nitrox course or Rescue, which are big favorites, will not address this in any way.

A fun "challenge" course that could be built at the BHB, could help show skills that are lacking, and it would be easy to see people doing it the right way...and to see demonstrations of how to do it the right way....many of these skills could be taught by a TDI or IANTD or SSI or PADI or NAUI instructor....and the idea is that this is beyond agency propaganda...that it is just showing skills lacking, and better ways divers should see of accomplishing some aspects of dives....

 

[ScubaSteve]

I would like to think that if a diver sees themselves diving and can compare that to someone who truly has "mastered" the skills, I think many would want take steps to improve. I know that when I was around dive 30 or 40, I saw a diver (dressed all in black ) neutrally buoyant about 6" off the bottom of a pool and not moving a hand or a foot, I knew that I needed to and wanted to improve. I had never been exposed to that and I do not "blame" my instructor for my inability to master the skill in 5 dives.

I personally could see this type of program as a means to introduce divers to "the next level" of skills mastery. I think many divers would see their skills as needing (and wanting) improvement without holding any ill will against their instructor.

That is just a thought anyway.

 

[Peter Guy]

tomf wrote

Every diver has a different way of doing things and none of them are the "RIGHT" way

While it may be true that "Every diver has a different way of doing things" not ALL of them ARE "right." There are, in fact, many things that divers do that are just plain wrong -- and generally those are things that the divers never learned a (note "a") proper or correct way of doing.

So what might be one thing that a diver might do that "is wrong?" Well, silting out a dive site for one -- or even a portion of a dive site -- thereby making it unuseable for another diver.

Dan -- again I applaud your desire to start a program to show people that a "higher level" of diving skill is obtainable. For what it's worth, I thought about this and approached the owner of my LDS and asked his permission to offer a "Skills Review" session for the diving staff -- he was all for it. I'll see about putting it together and who, if anyone, will attend.

 

[Thalassamania]

Got to this thread kinda late. My thoughts on this are no freaking way. If my customers or students want to be exposed to the "GUE/DIR" way of doing things, thats fine, they can go to a GUE shop and take a GUE class. For me to tell them to join in on this course because they will learn a better way to do things is the same as saying "hey, i did a piss poor job of teaching your classes, so why dont you take this course so you can learn the right way to dive." Every diver has a different way of doing things and none of them are the "RIGHT" way....its just their way. To claim that one way of doing things is better than the other is comparing apples to oranges.

It is not a matter of learning a better way or a DIR/GUE way to do things, it is simply an objective way of seeing if one has learned what ever diver should be able to do. If your students have not, well ... yes ... you "did a piss poor job of teaching your classes, so why dont you take this course so you can learn the right way to dive." Not the Gue way, not the DIR way, hey ... poodle vests and split fins are AOK, no necklace required and a single tanks with an AIR-II will not get in the way. But the question remains, "can you do it?" If you can and your students can also ... great. If you can and your students can't, well ... why did you not teach it?

My experience using the Diamond Reef down in the Keys was that about half the instructors and DMs who tried it could not enter the diamond and hover there, horizontal, for 30 seconds without touching.

 

[g1138]

For those wondering about the Diamond Reef set up. UCSC uses something similar during our last fun pool session for our Basic class.

It's just simple PVC tubing. Some of them are left with one corner "open" but capped off to create an air tight diamond tube. We hold down the whole contraption with a 2-10lb weightbelt depending how lazy the TAs' feel or how much moonwalking we want to do at the end.

With the cut corner you can connect a few so they're stacked vertically in the water column. Lots of fun to practice your ascents, helicopters, and back kicks with. If a diver gets caught up in the diamond they can pull themselves out from the cut corner. This is pretty useful for those smaller ones.

 

[danvolker]

Got to this thread kinda late. My thoughts on this are no freaking way. If my customers or students want to be exposed to the "GUE/DIR" way of doing things, thats fine, they can go to a GUE shop and take a GUE class. For me to tell them to join in on this course because they will learn a better way to do things is the same as saying "hey, i did a piss poor job of teaching your classes, so why dont you take this course so you can learn the right way to dive." Every diver has a different way of doing things and none of them are the "RIGHT" way....its just their way. To claim that one way of doing things is better than the other is comparing apples to oranges.

Tom...here is just one very quick ( 10 second) video showing a very common way of divers doing things, that is VERY WRONG....and is typically not address in Nitrox, in AOW, in REscue, or most other mainstream courses.... [video=youtube_share;2VEthluthE4]http://youtu.be/2VEthluthE4?hd=1[/video]


Typically, a diver like this one would also be carrying 10 pounds or more of weight beyond what they need to be neutral with a tank down to 500 psi....and they will frequently spend most of their time head up, and feet down, pushing a bow wave.
They have to buy very soft fins, because a stiffer fin like a Jet, would transmit their incorrect leg motions, and theu would find they could not swim with them ( because of incorrect use)....We would show that with correct kick stroke, the Jet, or Quattro, or hollis F1 , or freedive fin, or Force Fin, would propel the diver much better, and with the stiffer fin, actual precision control is possible...Far too many divers have never considered any aspect of precision control--many may not even have an idea why they would want it !!!

 

[Jim Lapenta]

A couple of our local sites have diamonds like this set up and on the last one or two checkout dives I will lead students through them (the only time they will swim single file BTW) . They seem to like the challenge and the feedback they get from each other is very useful. Some insist on trying it more than once to be sure they did it correctly, maybe touched on the first pass, or just to be sure it wasn't a fluke. They purposely slow down to make it more difficult. I see this as a confidence building tool as well to reinforce good instruction. I would think an instructor that is doing his/her best to turn out good divers would welcome anything that reinforces that. It's no different than demoing skills in midwater. Show them what it's supposed to look like and then show them the basic techniques to achieve it.

When I go through one of these shapes and then tell students to go through and they don't get it quite right the first time it's not done to embarrass them or to say that they are not good divers or that the way I taught them was bad. It is to show them that even though they had good training, it is not enough. They don't need another class right away but need to work on the basics. They have the tools, they know what they are, they know what to do with them and what the outcome needs to be. Now they need to just get out there and do it. Using stuff like this gives feedback on their position, breathing pattern, fin strokes, etc. Feedback that they can feel and see.

Looking at it as a way to say the way I trained them was bad is the same as saying I don't need to improve myself. And that does no one any good. Cause the fact is we all have things we need to work on and demonstrating that realization to students is one of the most valuable lessons we can pass on.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalkcs

 

[diveprof]

I've been away, so sorry for the lag in response from my last post. Looking at the links, this is close to what we have locally. Our's are more squares than diamonds (a bit more challenging if you ask me). In the PADI AOW Peak Perfomance Bouyancy elective and PPB specialty that I teach, we use these all the time. After weightling adjustments (most new divers are overweighted), we go through these verrrry slooow (read hover). We also practice different fin kicks including diving with one fin should you lose one. We have one double square setup where we go though horizontally through the top one, invert and go slowly through the bottom one upside down at a snail's pace. So what am I missing from what is being offered. Our course is at 25-30'. I would guess that the BHB one would be in 10-15' which would be a challenge in a 7mm wetsuit in the winter. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Rogersea]

I just opened this thread for the first time. So you may have worked through the issues I am raising.
My opinion is that there will be little interest in this product from LDS's or their Divers. I believe that most divers who would be keen for something like this would already have honed their skills before embarking on a LDS sponsored trip to the keys. Other divers probably wont want to "waste" one of their dive dives on this.

As an Instructor and owner of a small dive business, I would not really want to share what little money is made on these trips with a shop which just happens to be on the way...

Finally I think the idea is predicated on the notion that my/any students are not diving at the level they need to be...Or at least that is how most would interpret it.

Cheers,
Roger

 

[danvolker]

I just opened this thread for the first time. So you may have worked through the issues I am raising.
My opinion is that there will be little interest in this product from LDS's or their Divers. I believe that most divers who would be keen for something like this would already have honed their skills before embarking on a LDS sponsored trip to the keys. Other divers probably wont want to "waste" one of their dive dives on this.

As an Instructor and owner of a small dive business, I would not really want to share what little money is made on these trips with a shop which just happens to be on the way...

Finally I think the idea is predicated on the notion that my/any students are not diving at the level they need to be...Or at least that is how most would interpret it.

Cheers,
Roger

Hi Roger,
This is no where near the Keys....
It is, in it's own right, a world famous destination for macro life....People will come to Palm Beach to dive our reefs, and during the trip, most will want to do the BHB dive at least once....it is a shore dive, and free, along with being unique.
What it does have in common with the keys and most tourist destinations, is large numbers of divers with poor skills--divers that silt constantly, and who pogo along the bottom.
Shops doing Dive Travel to Palm Beach, will like a free day of diving in this unique area, and the challenge course will be great for them to video their own people in, and to later run course where trim and propulsion and bouyancy are better perfected.
This will also be big with local shops.
I made some big headway on this concept today, it is looking very good, very soon