Wikipedia article on "Doing It Right"

[MXGratefulDiver]

Our NAUITec, GUE and UTD trained divers seem to be able to dive together pretty seamlessly ... probably for no better reason than because they want to ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[danvolker]

The point of standardization is that it allows for a certain level of predictability. Example, if I am doing a tech 1 dive with another GUE diver to ~130ft., I know what backgas he/she will bring and I know what deco gas he/she will bring. I know what tools that other diver will use to figure out the deco time based on our planned bottom time. Now, of course, the other diver or I could ask to modify the plan/procedures/equipment to satisfy other requirements. But the baseline is established based on a common standard.

With a UTD diver, all of this standardization might not apply. For example, the UTD diver has different tools he might apply to this dive. Specifically, the gas might be 25/25. The equipment might not be backmounted doubles. It might be side mount. Or it might be some CCR kit. For deco gas, I dunno but maybe 100% might be the deco gas of choice for this dive. And for deco planning, is there even deco software that the UTD guys use or is it ratio deco only?

Of course, discussion and planning ahead of time can remedy all these asymmetries between the GUE diver and the UTD diver. But the point is that there isn't a common standard between GUE and UTD (and I have no idea how NAUITec or ISE fits in the discussion). And as time goes along, GUE and UTD will only continue to diverge. Its really already come to a point that its pretty much meaningless, to me anyway, when one is characterized as a DIR diver. (Sorry Dan V.)

No apology necessary, but thanks

I still think there is "some meaning" if you go out on a charter boat, and your group of 2 has 3 others that may want to do the drop and dive with you....if they are DIR on a 100 foot dive, or a 160 foot dive, that would be better than 3 that had tanks and hoses hanging all over the place with a spare air mounted on the chest....

I do feel the team issues on serious dives requires the same team mindset, which is why Sandra and I are doing GUE Fundamentals in January...to be on "exactly" the same page in a team dive with other GUE divers. Our DIR ideas are fine for Bill Mee, George Sandra and me, plus the GUE guys that have dove with us a lot..but the standardization for others and for our own better /more optimal team functioning, the GUE format is " the new DIR"

 

[boulderjohn]

The point for this thread is not whether such divers can dive together--as I know they can--the point is what should be said in a Wikipedia article about this. If an article on French Language contains information about the different varieties of French Language, then it seems to me there is room for this sort of thing in an article on DIR as well.

Here is a very quick summary of the sort of thing it could say. I have tried to be as neutral as possible.

From its inception, there was no question about who decided what concept, ideals, and equipment were considered DIR, and there was no question about who would approve of changes. As time passed, the question of who determines what is or is not DIR has become open for debate. George Irvine is no longer associated with it, and GUE was for a time the unchallenged determiner of what was or was not DIR. Eventually training personnel [probably should reference AG] from that agency took those ideals to NAUI and then to a new agency, UTD. Both claim to be using DIR principles, but both have diverged from the original concepts. GUE itself has stopped using the term DIR. Since the term was never officially trademarked, no one can be prevented from using it. Although many people believe that only GUE can determine DIR principles, others support the right of agencies like UTD to say that what they teach is DIR as well.​

 

[Slamfire]

Eventually training personnel [probably should reference AG] from that agency took those ideals to NAUI and then to a new agency, UTD.

I think it does need to reference AG since a similar story took place in Europe with Achim R. Schlöffel and his ISE. In other words, AG is not the only one and probably will not be the last to offer more "open-minded/progressive DIR", and an even higher degree of "badassness" and skills.

From www.is-expl.com/about_us:

From 1999 until 2008 Achim has taught various courses and levels in technical diving for GUE...

"..my customers always asked for the most rigorous and demanding training. They want to get the real experience, feel the real limit, and in the end know that they had to give everything. When I realized that I could not offer that anymore I knew it was time to move on..."

...ISE programs are less restricted by a financially influenced philosophy, as ISE is not connected to any particular equipment manufacturer. Although ISE is clearly influenced by the DIR Philosophy, it is open for new input and leading technology that may have its place in the diving field.

So if you dream to dive boldly, where no diver have been before, you are at the right place and with the right people!

Wearing a mask is a privilege, not a right... AND YOU HAVE NOT EARNED THAT PRIVILEGE, MISTER!!!! NOW GO BACK DOWN AND GIVE ME 12 VALVE DRILLS with AN SMB DEPLOYMENT WHILE YOU JUGGLE 5 STAGES. AND DON'T COME UP UNTIL YOUR EYEBALLS ARE FROZEN STIFF.

 

[jago]

With a UTD diver, all of this standardization might not apply. For example, the UTD diver has different tools he might apply to this dive. Specifically, the gas might be 25/25. The equipment might not be backmounted doubles. It might be side mount. Or it might be some CCR kit. For deco gas, I dunno but maybe 100% might be the deco gas of choice for this dive. And for deco planning, is there even deco software that the UTD guys use or is it ratio deco only?

It seems UTD SM config is very similar to BM DIR config (LH use as primary, SH on a necklace ...).

 

[Adobo]

It seems UTD SM config is very similar to BM DIR config (LH use as primary, SH on a necklace ...).

I'm going to have to look up the definition of "similar".

 

[TSandM]

I like your paragraph, John. The term was at one point fairly tightly defined, but is no longer, which is why GUE has abandoned it.

 

[danvolker]

Actually French of France is more batardized than French of Canada. The only annoying point is the word "check" they use as many as the little bue creatures say "schtroumpf" or "smurf". But anyone who likes la Pléiade would be happy to discuss with Canadians.



There are dozen version of French, even in France, French differs from the regions. But everybody French-speaking guy is able to communicate easily with any other guy.
So, did a GUE, NauiTec, UTD and ISE divers can dive together and did their team procedures compatible ?

I could ask why so many of the French Canadian cyclists I know have complained about how they were treated when in France, due to their "way of speaking French"...individual differences were causing large behavior problems,,,, Not surprisingly, you are unaware of how snotty the French can be to any who are not French, or not from Paris.

French issues aside, it is hard to understand why you can't see the problems that each of the examples just mentioned ( GUE/NauiTec/UTD/ISE/etc) would create in suddenly placing individuals from each in the water together. The language analogy was not meant to literally explain the issue...it was supposed to conceptualize the issue, of course you would have none of that

When DIR was in it's heyday, back in the late 90's, it was mandated for team members, and there was 100% team /collective function and optimal understanding between all team members....all gear of each was familiar to the others, as if it was their own. Today, this is how GUE divers are to each other.

MORE to your perspective.....you "can" put a GUE diver with a NauiTec and a ISE diver together on a recreational charter boat for an 80 foot dive over pretty coral reefs, for a recreational duration. Only a minimum of communication on the surface of planned bottom time and goal for the dive would need to occur. For the majority of dives that take place in the world every day, this is quite feasible---not to say ideal, but in the real world, this is going to happen. However, when you start going to deco dives or very challenging dives, the need for optimizing mindset , communication, and gear equivalency for all divers in a team becomes overwhelmingly significant.

And this is WHY you can't have 5 flavors of DIR....there can only be ONE. And this makes GUE "the new DIR".....but it will have to be called GUE so andrew and you and WIKI can't disrupt what this form of diving actually means !

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I could ask why so many of the French Canadian cyclists I know have complained about how they were treated when in France, due to their "way of speaking French

Karma ... I've spent enough time in Quebec to have experienced how snotty the French Canadians can be to pretty much anybody who isn't French Canadian.

I've heard that when there aren't any tourists around, they stay in practice by being snotty to each other ...

MORE to your perspective.....you "can" put a GUE diver with a NauiTec and a ISE diver together on a recreational charter boat for an 80 foot dive over pretty coral reefs, for a recreational duration. Only a minimum of communication on the surface of planned bottom time and goal for the dive would need to occur. For the majority of dives that take place in the world every day, this is quite feasible---not to say ideal, but in the real world, this is going to happen. However, when you start going to deco dives or very challenging dives, the need for optimizing mindset , communication, and gear equivalency for all divers in a team becomes overwhelmingly significant.

I suppose it really depends on the divers. The "mindset" is team diving, and the protocols are similar enough to be easily adaptable and agreed-upon during the planning phase of the dive. When I was doing a lot of tech dives, we'd routinely have GUE, UTD, and NAUI Tech trained divers on the boat ... and with a few exceptions none of them had any issue doing 200-foot wreck dives together. Equipment setup is the same, gas choices are standardized, deco schedules are agreed to ahead of time ... so what exactly is the issue?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[danvolker]

Karma ... I've spent enough time in Quebec to have experienced how snotty the French Canadians can be to pretty much anybody who isn't French Canadian.

I've heard that when there aren't any tourists around, they stay in practice by being snotty to each other ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

So you are saying the common denominator is "French", right ?