Wikipedia article on "Doing It Right"

[danvolker]

Oh, and BTW, isn't GUE trying to distance itself from the DIR moniker lately? Then there should be no problem bringing other players into the article. Maybe the distancing efforts and their reasons should also be mentioned in the article.

Agreed...Here we could take a quote from George as saying that HE believes GUE is the agency teaching the closest thing to his vision of DIR....but that they ARE teaching GUE diving.....And then Andrew could say whatever he thinks of DIR, as his opinion of how he has "evolved" from the WKPP origins...

This area could be "Evolutions of DIR beyond WKPP in the 90's...."...note evolution indicates CHANGE OR MUTATION...Sometimes good, sometimes bad.

 

[danvolker]

Dan,
I tried downloading DIR3 several times with Realdownload, every time it crashed after a few hours at less than 1/4 way through. However I got a copy on DVD from a friend, so all is well on that front. I haven't had time to go through it completely yet, but I have noticed that some text comes up on the player to the effect that the three presenters are Bill Mee, Dan Volker and George Irvine. Is this correct? I recognise GI as the one to the right at the start, but dont know who is who of the others. It would be useful to know if I want to attribure a quote.
Someone added an edit to the WP article claiming that you are a strong advocate of surf mats/surf shuttle. Would you comment on this? Are they DIR recommended equipment? If so under what circumstances?

Something else that might be useful would be a formal and official DIR code of practice. I accept that it would be subject to change with time, but a document detailing what the current practice actually is would be useful to reduce confusion.

Regarding suggestions:
Where and why it was started, who was involved, major milestones on the timeline, how decisions were made and how the configuration developed, How the philosphy developed, and references, references, references. It is almost impossible to over-reference a history, particularly regarding who said what to whom. It might also be interesting to mention experiments that failed, as these provide insights into changes made to address those problems. Dont exclude anything at this stage. If something looks doubtful, put it in the unused references file, it may be useful later. Get input from as many people who were involved as possible. Keep it all, use that which looks useful. Ask all the contributors to supply references, preferably as attachments. Use appendices to provide references that are difficult for the public to access. Try to find time to eat, sleep and dive between edits.
Good luck,
Peter

Hi Peter,
I am in the middle.
The Surfmat is something I consider far more valuable in open ocean than a standard lift bag. It can be sent up just like a lift bag, but on the surface, it has a place to put a wet note for the boat to read, OR, if no boat is around, it makes an exceptionally comfortable platform to use for swimming many miles, as if it was a belly board/surfboard. They tuck into the mc storage pouch ---this is like padding behind your back attached to the backplate, where it is entirely out of hydrodynamic drag or entanglement potential. It was created with DIR in mind, and used by myself, George and Bill, Carmichael, and dozens of other primary DIR personalities that are now GUE people.
I don't know if that makes it DIR recommended equipment today, but anyone who has gone through fundies would either know or be able to ask their instructor. I would expect it to be DIR "allowed".

The issue to me, regarding the surfmat....the rationale for deploying is so that when your buddy team moves off a wreck or reef, if you separate from the main float ball or flag, you can shoot your own marker up to the surface, so the boat knows where you are headed.
In the drift environment of Palm Beach, particularly for the deeper wrecks, you do want to have a main float market towed by someone in your group... Since your team may need to be separated from the group, you need to be able to deploy your own marker. The wet notes holder is a nice perk for a planned deco dive with support divers....but other than that, normal smb or surfmat are comprable in how they are deployed. Because it is possible for the boat to have to attend to someone, or something else, it is possible for you to surface and find no boat.....the Surfmat can stick up higher than an smb, and be very visible, and it is a great platform for high speed swimming with little effort--for several miles. The smb offers no such efficiency. An SMB "could" be stuffed into the mc storage pouch, if desired.

 

[beaverdivers]

Great! Hope it goes viral.

 

[Peter Southwood]

Sure. I found this example of citing sources on the talk page:

"Here is some other pretty good criticism: CDNN editorial (never heard of CDNN myself, but it comes high on the Google hits)."
​

I assume you don't see anything wrong with this, but I bet just about anyone reading this thread in this forum knows how very, very little credibility CDNN has among savvy divers. To give you an analogy, one of the most popular news sources in America is the National Enquirer. Intelligent researchers know better than to cite it as an authoritative source.

People who know what they are talking about can tell the difference between a credible source and a laughable source.

Hi Boulderjohn.
1. Where on the talk page did you find that reference to CDNN? I looked for it, but couldn't find it, and don't remember it coming up while I have been working on the page. The talk page is getting big and it is starting to get tricky to find something without at least mentioning the section heading.
2. Yes, we do get people who don't understand the principles of reliable sourcing. That is not the same problem as knowing nothing about the subject, or thinking one does. They are separate issues. The best countermeasure for this is peer review, Ie. getting people who do know something about the subject to check through and comment on the quality, including the reliability of sources. That is probably one of the reasons Rhone Man started this thread in the first place ( the other reasons probably including the hope that some subject matter experts would actually do some referenced editing, and that we might get pointers to good sources we dont know about.) We might even strike gold and get some subject matter experts to produce a reliable reference where none existed before.
3. The talk page is the right place to ask if a reference is reliable, or to suggest it as a possible source, as then other editors can point out whether it is known to be a National Enquirer look-alike before it gets used on the article page.
Cheers,
Peter

 

[Tortuga68]

The Surfmat... was created with DIR in mind, and used by myself, George and Bill, Carmichael, and dozens of other primary DIR personalities that are now GUE people. I don't know if that makes it DIR recommended equipment today, but anyone who has gone through fundies would either know or be able to ask their instructor. I would expect it to be DIR "allowed"

Didn't rate a mention in my GUE-F course... nor does it in the 2005 Quest article on Liftbags & SMBs that was provided as supplemental reading, although I think there may be one in a photo. Then again they don't mention any brands at all, although the photos all seem to be of Halcyon gear. I believe the DIR stance would be that you should use the smallest SMB appropriate to the conditions you are diving in - in my GUE-F course we all used the thin 3.3' Halcyon SMBs

 

[Peter Southwood]

Didn't rate a mention in my GUE-F course... nor does it in the 2005 Quest article on Liftbags & SMBs that was provided as supplemental reading, although I think there may be one in a photo. Then again they don't mention any brands at all, although the photos all seem to be of Halcyon gear. I believe the DIR stance would be that you should use the smallest SMB appropriate to the conditions you are diving in - in my GUE-F course we all used the thin 3.3' Halcyon SMBs

Hi Tortuga68,
Why do you believe the DIR stance (policy?) would be to use the smallest SMB appropriate to the conditions, and how would you identify what size that would be?
Cheers,
Peter

 

[danvolker]

Hi Tortuga68,
Why do you believe the DIR stance (policy?) would be to use the smallest SMB appropriate to the conditions, and how would you identify what size that would be?
Cheers,
Peter

I would think that would be about drag and entanglement issues of having "larger" smb's clipped to you...Again, the surfmat disappears inside the storage pouch, so this is a non-issue...Halcyon also used make ( may still make) a one man life raft that can be used the same way, even sent up from depth( has OPV). It is a tight fit to get it into the storage pouch, but it can be done....I have used it for tech dives off of Fort Pierce where you are 25 to 30 miles from shore....coming up and finding no boat is a reason for the raft to be "viable"...however, every time you pull this out, putting it back in is a pain, so you don't deploy except in an emergency...kind of defeating the normal purpose of the smb.

 

[boulderjohn]

Hi Boulderjohn.
1. Where on the talk page did you find that reference to CDNN? I looked for it, but couldn't find it, and don't remember it coming up while I have been working on the page. The talk page is getting big and it is starting to get tricky to find something without at least mentioning the section heading.

You do remember that I was referencing the PADI article, not the DIR article? It follows the part where one guy was giving the ridiculous opinion that PADI required its instructors to purchase its own insurance. Here is the larger reference with the part I quoted highlighted.

I seem to recall that there was an English judgment a few years back where a High Court judge (after hearing expert evidence) expressed real concerns that PADI courses were too short and insufficiently rigorous for the more dangerous diving conditions in the UK when compared against historically British sport diving courses like the old BSAC system. I'll see if I can find the reference and put a cite in. The other criticism I remember hearing about PADI from time to time (and I'm a member just for the record) is that its approach to PI cover was monopolistic, ie. if you didn't purchase your PI cover through PADI, you could not keep your professional licenses as a Divemaster or Instructor or whatever. I'll see if I can dig up a cite for that too.I do think it is important to include relevant criticism to balance out the article (which at the moment is a bit of a puff piece), but it clearly must be reliably sourced.--Legis (talk - contribs) 18:52, 20 March 2008 (UTC) Here is the bit about the judge's finding (my error - coroner's inquest not a HC judge): BBC news article. I think the same coronor made a similar finding in a different inquest: Times online article. Here is some other pretty good criticism: CDNN editorial (never heard of CDNN myself, but it comes high on the Google hits). This is a slightly more balance critique: Review. Plenty of material for a criticism section now. --Legis (talk - contribs) 19:02, 20 March 2008 (UTC) Looks like my mistake on the insurance point - must have been an urban myth that I took too seriously. --Legis (talk - contribs) 19:08, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

 

[DiverLaura]

Halcyon sadly no longer makes the divers life raft. There are still a few kicking around but it never caught on. I have not been able to make it work in the storage pouch, but have tried it tucked into the inntertube on the side of a stage bottle no problem. Same with the surfmat with regards to stowing (I have short plate so could be part of my issue getting the bigger things to fit)

I would think that would be about drag and entanglement issues of having "larger" smb's clipped to you...Again, the surfmat disappears inside the storage pouch, so this is a non-issue...Halcyon also used make ( may still make) a one man life raft that can be used the same way, even sent up from depth( has OPV). It is a tight fit to get it into the storage pouch, but it can be done....I have used it for tech dives off of Fort Pierce where you are 25 to 30 miles from shore....coming up and finding no boat is a reason for the raft to be "viable"...however, every time you pull this out, putting it back in is a pain, so you don't deploy except in an emergency...kind of defeating the normal purpose of the smb.

 

[danvolker]

Halcyon sadly no longer makes the divers life raft. There are still a few kicking around but it never caught on. I have not been able to make it work in the storage pouch, but have tried it tucked into the inntertube on the side of a stage bottle no problem. Same with the surfmat with regards to stowing (I have short plate so could be part of my issue getting the bigger things to fit)

Guess I better be kind of protective of the one I still have