Why waste money on training!?

[Bob DBF]

NAUI and others do not associate with RSTE because their standards are lower than NAUI allows their instructors to train.

WRSTC :: World Recreational Scuba Training Council
WRSTC Downloads


In theory RSTE standards sound good, however their aim of of an OW diver

A certified open water diver is qualified to apply the knowledge and skills outlined in this standard to plan, conduct, and log open-water, no-required decompression dives when properly equipped, and accompanied by another certified diver.

seems to be put off in the modular development of skills that is in vogue today.



Bob
-----------------------
I may be old, but I'm not dead yet.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Some agencies do not use RSTC guidelines as they are so ridiculously low. Even the signatories to the RSTC seem not to follow the guidelines when it affects the bottom line.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2

Wow, cool!

Sounds like the field is ripe for a little revolution!
I was unaware of the specifics, but if the RSTC standards are that low and some agencies have risen above it then it sounds like
they are on their way to becoming irrelevant.

 

[Bob DBF]

Just like there is a CA smog law that prevents auto repair shops from performing smog certifications to avoid corruption and passing off dirty running cars. They have developed "Smog Only" certification stations which are privately owned BTW, and they are not allowed to do any repairs at these facilities. All they can do is hook your car up to the machine and test it. The results go straight to DMV via internet from the testing machine so there is no way to fudge the results and pass a dirty car.

The problem I've seen with that is that it takes a significant amount more money to deal with a vehicle that needs work. Since the smog machine talks directly to the DMV, there is no way around the check, but you have to go elsewhere to have the work done and waste time and money running between shop and check station to eventually pass the vehicle. In other words they take away the ability to cheat the test then screw you and the shop by not making it convient to resolve the problem.


If you want to fix the diver training problem, address the poor instructors and leave the divers out of it. If they call themselves dive proffessionals, make them live up to their "profession".


Bob
-------------
I may be old, but I'm not dead yet.

 

[John C. Ratliff]

Eric,

Thanks for the information. I did a little research, and found out there is actually a statement on ScubaBoard by NAUI about NAUI's position on RSTC.

So where did RSTC come from and who are they?
An outgrowth of the ANSI Z86.3 committee was the formation of the Recreational Scuba Training Council (RSTC) by the training organizations who were coincidentally members of the ANSI Committee. The initial membership of the RSTC included NAUI, YMCA, LA County UIA, PADI, SSI, IDEA, PDIC, and others. Shortly after its forming, some of the members drafted articles of incorporation and bylaws and registered RSTC as a non-profit with the state of California. This in and of itself was a good business move and would help protect the members of the RSTC. Unfortunately, one of the articles or bylaws called for the decisions of the RSTC to be binding on all of its members. Because agreeing to be bound by the decisions of an outside party was unacceptable to NAUI, LA County UIA, and YMCA, these three withdrew from the RSTC. Years later RSTC reincorporated in Florida and altered its articles/bylaws to remove the provision to which we objected, and the YMCA rejoined in the mid 90’s. The RSTC continues today with five member organizations, who are IDEA, PADI, PDIC, SSI and the YMCA.

I also found this statement on the World Recreational Scuba Training Council in Wikipedia:

The most significant training organisations which are not associated with WRSTC via membership of its regional RSTCs are Confédération Mondiale des Activités Subaquatiques (CMAS), National Association of Underwater Instructors (NAUI), British Sub-Aqua Club (BSAC), and International Association of Nitrox and Technical Divers (IANTD).

If NAUI, CMAS (the World Underwater Federation) and BSAC are not within this organization, I feel that its "standards" may be more profit-driven than educational.

SeaRat

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

The problem I've seen with that is that it takes a significant amount more money to deal with a vehicle that needs work. Since the smog machine talks directly to the DMV, there is no way around the check, but you have to go elsewhere to have the work done and waste time and money running between shop and check station to eventually pass the vehicle. In other words they take away the ability to cheat the test then screw you and the shop by not making it convient to resolve the problem.


If you want to fix the diver training problem, address the poor instructors and leave the divers out of it. If they call themselves dive proffessionals, make them live up to their "profession".


Bob
-------------
I may be old, but I'm not dead yet.

Honestly Bob, I've tried to analize it a hundred ways from Sunday on how to weed out the bad apple instructors but in a self regulated indusrty with no checks or balances and no overseeing body, and I just don't see how it will ever change with the current honor system.

Did you ever read my report on the miserable dive buddy experience I had at Gerstle that one time? That was hands down THE worst diver I ever had the displeasure of encountereing bar none. He was supposedly certified (via "private classes") by an independent PADI instructor who happened to also be his brother in-law.
If I wasn't there with a cool head to bail his ass out, no question in my mind he would have been dead.

This is the kind of crap that needs to cleaned up.

If he would have had to go through a qualification test like one I'm proposing, there would have been no way in hell he would have passed. Not that it would have stopped him from diving, but at least he would have had it in the back of his mind that he sucked bad enough that he couldn't even pass a ligitimate standards test.

 

[Bob DBF]

Wow, cool!

Sounds like the field is ripe for a little revolution!
I was unaware of the specifics, but if the RSTC standards are that low and some agencies have risen above it then it sounds like
they are on their way to becoming irrelevant.

Check out the RSTC link WRSTC Downloads that gives the standards.


As in my other post, if the agencies don't produce an indepent diver, I dont believe they are living up to the RSTC standard.



Bob
----------------
What, me worry.

---------- Post added March 2nd, 2014 at 06:48 PM ----------

. Honestly Bob, I've tried to analize it a hundred ways from Sunday on how to weed out the bad apple instructors but in a self regulated indusrty with no checks or balances and no overseeing body, and I just don't see how it will ever change with the current honor system.

Did you ever read my report on the miserable dive buddy experience I had at Gerstle that one time? That was hands down THE worst diver I ever had the displeasure of encountereing bar none. He was supposedly certified (via "private classes") by an independent PADI instructor who happened to also be his brother in-law.
If I wasn't there with a cool head to bail his ass out, no question in my mind he would have been dead.

If he would have had to go through a qualification test like one I'm proposing, there would have been no way in hell he would have passed. Not that it would have stopped him from diving, but at least he would have had it in the back of his mind that he sucked bad enough that he couldn't even pass a ligitimate standards test.

I didn't catch the thread as I remember, but BTDT. Of course you haven't been diving with me yet. As
an old mentor once said to me when I was whining, "I didn't train you for easy dives". I love those old timers.

I feel your pain, but I quit blaming the divers a while back. You don't know what your instructor doesn't tell you.

.This is the kind of crap that needs to cleaned up.

I agree however, I want all the pressure on the professionals. If they want to be professionals and get the perks, then they should be the ones to be fixed. I've been diving for a while, and the guys that trained me may be pissed that someone would be looking over their shoulder, but they wouldn't have changed how they trained.


Hey, if your interested, later this spring I'll show you what me and my bud have been up to at Lake Sonoma over the past year or so. With any luck, no remains.



Bob
--------------------
If you haven't done it wrong, you haven't been diving long.

 

[DaleC]

It is difficult to see how one can separate poor instruction from the current model if the agencies create the instructor, curriculum, evaluation and expectations, and derive profit from preserving the status quo. In fact, they make more profit by lowering the standards of their initial courses by then providing additional courses to make up the difference. The non diver has no idea what should be expected so they think this is admirable on the agencies part. Modularity is promoted as convenient and comprehensive instead of the division of basic skills into more opportunity for sales.

The problem is further compounded because those same agencies make money from training instructors as well as divers. The more instructors put through the mill, the better. This means there is a profit motive to lower the barriers for entrants into the professional as well as diver ranks.

We say the consumer should be more discriminating but this is a message too late for most as the ones hearing this have already taken instruction. The non diver knows nothing of these issues.

Any instructor within the ranks who seriously advocated weeding out poor instructors would be vilified both by their peers and their agency. The only option seems to be to opt out of the agency and create a new model, but this doesn't really solve the existing issues.

Why will it work for ham radio operation but not for diving: http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/smt-gst.nsf/eng/sf01862.html

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Any time you open up an organization to.govt regs you open it up to paid lobbyists who bribe lawmakers to do what they want. Who do you think can afford the most lobbyists to protect their bottom line? Do you really want them writing more standards they can then ignore when they choose to?

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Any time you open up an organization to.govt regs you open it up to paid lobbyists who bribe lawmakers to do what they want. Who do you think can afford the most lobbyists to protect their bottom line? Do you really want them writing more standards they can then ignore when they choose to?

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2

No way!
I've already gotten rid of the notions of the state regulating anything!
I don't know what I was thinking.

---------- Post added March 2nd, 2014 at 10:52 PM ----------

Of course you haven't been diving with me yet. As an old mentor once said to me when I was whining, "I didn't train you for easy dives". I love those old timers.
Hey, if your interested, later this spring I'll show you what me and my bud have been up to at Lake Sonoma over the past year or so. With any luck, no remains.



Bob
--------------------
If you haven't done it wrong, you haven't been diving long.

I remember we talked on the beach a few times when we've run into each other diving out there. One of these days we might even be in the water on the same beach on the same day. That passes as a buddy dive up in our neck of the woods doesn't it?

I'm interested to know you've got going at Lake Sonoma. It isn't the boat that tumbled at 115 MPH and stuffed the two guys up into the bow is it?
As I remember that boat was found on radar at about 220 feet deep but even the Army Corps of Engineers dive team wouldn't dive on it to recover the bodies because of the hazards.

 

[Bob DBF]

I remember we talked on the beach a few times when we've run into each other diving out there. One of these days we might even be in the water on the same beach on the same day. That passes as a buddy dive up in our neck of the woods doesn't it?

I'm interested to know you've got going at Lake Sonoma. It isn't the boat that tumbled at 115 MPH and stuffed the two guys up into the bow is it?
As I remember that boat was found on radar at about 220 feet deep but even the Army Corps of Engineers dive team wouldn't dive on it to recover the bodies because of the hazards.

Yeah, we have probably been same day, same ocean buddies for years and didn't know.

As for Lake Sonoma, we can discuss "the project" in private, and our surprise was covered in the PD and on the local news, but is was not connected to the boat accident as far as we know.


Bob
-----------------
I may be old, but I'm not dead yet.