Why waste money on training!?

[DCBC]

What planet are you from? The dive training industry is set up on more classes. You take basic open water, then before you are done they want to sign you up for advanced. Then rescue, then a bunch of specialties, some more beneficial than others. Many of these classes plug holes in the training.

The method of training that's most often employed by instructors today is very limited; as it doesn't try to improve a student's in-water ability (teaching the basics of equipment operation), fitness, or confidence (what part of today's diver training program causes a student to works-up a sweat or greatly increase stress?) Generally speaking the course is designed to be 'fun' (which is all fine and good). The goal is to prepare the student for ideal conditions where nothing is expected to go wrong. If this wasn't the case, it would be reflected in the Standards. The diver can enjoy looking at the fish in shallow warm water.

Panic kills divers. Although it can't be eliminated, it can be mitigated through training. The course content however is not currently within today's training programs. If instructor's are not trained to deal with panic themselves, how can they train others? This just isn't a requirement.

As long as nothing goes bump in the night, everything's fine. When it does however, the diver often becomes a victim of today's lower training Standards. That said, equipment is reliable and more people can share in the underwater experience. Most are not die hard divers that would benefit from more inclusive training. For those that want it, that could be a problem...

Regardless of the training program a diver requires experience to broaden the scope of his diving education. He needs to dive...

 

[Redshift]

what part of today's diver training program causes a student to works-up a sweat or greatly increase stress?

I was fortunate enough to have had physical and/or mental stress in three of my rec courses, CMAS 1, rescue and CMAS 3.
If divers are only prepared for perfect scenarios, how will they react when things go badly? How can they even know how they will react?

I prefer the "first you get ready, then you have fun" approach.

 

[DCBC]

...I prefer the "first you get ready, then you have fun" approach.

Unfortunately, the focus in all too often turning a buck as quickly as possible. Not all training agencies care about the comprehensiveness of the diver program (taking the position that it's good enough). The argument goes that it's not like divers are dropping like flies; proof that this comprehensive training just isn't required. They go on to say that new divers can optionally coming back for more training (increasing their profits in the process).

Unfortunately some divers don't go back, so there are many divers who are not taught what to do if their Buddy has a problem underwater (sub-surface rescue), for example. If they decide to come back and take all the training available through the Agency, much of the training that you've experienced in the CMAS 1-3 Star system has been removed from the curriculum or was never their originally. Only a portion of this has been retained for the DM/instructor qualification. What I would call comprehensive training just isn't available through some agencies (at any level, at any price).

 

[Storker]

much of the training that you've experienced in the CMAS 1-3 Star system has been removed from the curriculum or was never their originally. Only a portion of this has been retained for the DM/instructor qualification. .

Cite, please. Preferably from CMAS' website.

AFAIK, CMAS** contains rescue ops and is roughly equivalent to PADI AOW+Rescue; CMAS*** is not a rec qualification but a dive leader cert and roughly equivalent to PADI DM.

Of course, I'm referring to Euro CMAS syllabus and standards, but as CMAS is a mostly European organization, I think that's quite appropriate...


PS: Aren't you the same person who've claimed that a CMAS* diver isn't considered to dive without supervision? That's blatantly false, too, BTW.
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[rhwestfall]

look at what they are in it for;

selling text books..... so, more classes = more books....
and card fees... so, more classes = more cards

do you think they will return to a comprehensive program?

And, the industry has filled the gap with a money maker themselves. The DM. He is there for you to fill in all the gaps you may have. You don't need training, you don't need to be self-sufficient, we do it all for you.

do you think the industry would let that "cash cow" dry up?



---------- Post added March 3rd, 2014 at 02:30 PM ----------

Cite, please. Preferably from CMAS' website.

AFAIK, CMAS** contains rescue ops and is roughly equivalent to PADI AOW+Rescue; CMAS*** is not a rec qualification but a dive leader cert and roughly equivalent to PADI DM.

Of course, I'm referring to Euro CMAS syllabus and standards, but as CMAS is a mostly European organization, I think that's quite appropriate...
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I think he means it doesn't exist in a majority of the other programs (though I may be mistaken).

 

[DCBC]

...CMAS** contains rescue ops and is roughly equivalent to PADI AOW+Rescue; CMAS*** is not a rec qualification but a dive leader cert and roughly equivalent to PADI DM.

I'm not disagreeing with you. The CMAS/PADI agreement outlines what courses are required before taking a CMAS program. The word 'equivalent' is used in this context. Moreover, it is recommended that CMAS members use this structure, should they decide to accept it, but any CMAS member is not obligated to do so.

Of course, I'm referring to Euro CMAS syllabus and standards, but as CMAS is a mostly European organization, I think that's quite appropriate...

Although there are more CMAS numbers in Europe, CMAS was never intended as a 'mostly European organization' (hence the name World Underwater Federation). As it has already been pointed-out by others, course syllabus and standards are applied and accepted by each country.

 

[TMHeimer]

Of course, I am only familiar with the details of PADI's programs. I do agree that continuing on at least through Rescue, if not the pro route, will obviously fill in a lot. Problem I see with this (with PADI as well as any other agency with this approach) is that, as mentioned, a big % of divers just don't continue and become scary vacation divers. I can't believe that anyone without at least Rescue Course is really diving "safely". But that's old stuff.

 

[SanDiegoSidemount]

Don't forget, everyone, that there actually are a handful of agencies that still require the level of diving standards being discussed here for Open Water divers. (A couple of notable ones have three-letter acronyms, and I hear the British one with four letters is pretty good too.)

It's just that these are not big mainstream agencies that beginning divers easily find out about. They can't compete with the big boys on price, nor can they promise their instructors the same student volume.

For example, the requirements for UTD Open Water certification include intensive buoyancy and trim work (no kneeling on the bottom! ever!), free diving skills, basic rescue, navigation, OOA with 30 foot distance to the donor, air sharing ascent including safety stop, and at least one student led experience dive.

These are things that have been complained about in this thread as disappearing from typical OW training. They are still requirements at some smaller agencies.

---------- Post added March 3rd, 2014 at 06:40 PM ----------

I would also add that at UTD, they make it pretty clear up front that you pay for training, but you earn your certification. The organization firmly stands behind instructors who refuse to certify students due to inadequate skills, bad diving habits or unsafe attitude.

 

[Mr Carcharodon]

Isn't it ironic that this thread that is about how dangerous it is not skip training while nearly half the threads on ScubaBoard are about how poor today's training is. Most people want quick and cheap and it is out there there to be had. There are more comprehensive courses too. Usually at a cost. The best value courses seem to be offered through Universities, Government agencies or Clubs. Of course in those cases the full cost is usually not being paid for by the students.

 

[Storker]

As it has already been pointed-out by others, course syllabus and standards are applied and accepted by each country.

You can't provide a cite for your unsubstantiated and AFAIK completely wrong claims about CMAS syllabi and standards and dodge the question by referring to national standards. I get it.

The CMAS website (http://www.cmas.org/ ) gives the agency's minimum standards. Those minimum standards are significantly higher than what you're trying to paint a picture of.

I've provided my cite. I'm still waiting for yours. Unless you can provide one, I have to assume you're just pulling things out the orifice located just below your lower back area.


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---------- Post added March 4th, 2014 at 05:28 AM ----------

The best value courses seem to be offered through Universities, Government agencies or Clubs.

You mean the way CMAS is stuctured?


(Gah! I'm sounding like a CMAS apostle. Which is weird, since my C-cards contain an A, a D, an I and a P...)
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