Why waste money on training!?

[TMHeimer]

As I mentioned, my in-water pool test is done continuously and includes:

400m surface swim;
15 mins drownproofing
2 min tread water
2 min tread water (arms only, feet crossed)
2 min tread water (feet only, wrists held out of the water)
10 lb weight belt recovery
25m underwater swim

The purpose of this, is to evaluate the individuals in-water efficiency and comfort. I could care less about style, but concern myself with in-water efficiency and fitness.

As you correctly point-out, a fully equipped diver will seldom be without his equipment. If this equipment malfunctions and s/he is using it as a crutch, disaster has and will continue to result.

Quite simply, in training a diver an instructor should look at what is reasonable. What level of comfort and skill should a person have, to face the diving environment where he is being trained? How much discomfort should the student possess? In other words, how close to panic should a person be if they get caught in fish-line, have their mask flood unexpectedly, loose their buddy in zero visibility, or have their regulator free-flow? An instructor either trains for this eventuality or they don't. It's reflected in the training hours and course content of the program.

DCBC: I haven't been in or seen a true panic situation--knock wood. Agree with all that you say. Except: When you say "I couldn't care less about style", --I don't know. Style means mechanics. Good mechanics--AND developed SWIMMING" muscles--means you have a big leg up on others if you have to swim w/o fins any big distance. Arguing whether that will ever happen is another thing. But I like your whole approach to the subject.

---------- Post added March 1st, 2014 at 01:59 AM ----------

There is good swimmer in the technical sense who has the proper stroke, then there is the good swimmer that can slog along going from one technically flawed stroke to another, with fins or not, until they get to safety or hypothermia takes them out. I'm in the latter, not pretty but with enough sense to know my swimming limits and try to stay within them, when on SCUBA or not. Could be it's just from getting old.

I'm with you on the popcorn.


**********************************



I see your point Bob. There are many takes on this subject. You can be technically flawed, but still in the ballpark, as I'm sure you are (my guess is you have no major flaws, just not getting the most out of each aspect of the stroke). I'm by no means perfect technically, but my 2 competitive swimming brothers got me in the ballpark for the DM test. Something most of us will agree on is if you really can't swim -- ei. not in the ballpark-- you're nuts to take up scuba, surfing, etc.


John C. Ratliff, You have actually mentioned a finless swim situation that got me thinking. Wow. Maybe someone finally has come up with such a scenario I can swallow. It's not a situation I have or probably ever will be in--that's one heck of a lot of surf-- 200 yards. Assume your fin strap broke? In my defense, you did have one remaining fin (I DROPPED ONE entering on a shore dive and one-finned around for 5 minutes to find it). But still, thanks for the good post.

Sorry, must reply to my own quote. Sorry John C. R., I have to recant on the Blue Ribbon. Rescuing someone with one fin through 200 yards of surf is really not actually swimming. It is a testament to your physical ability to perform an outstanding rescue using your legs and one fin!. I'll bet a lot of $ I couldn't do that--not at age 60 next month anyway--but maybe not at a younger age as well. But what does this have to do with SWIMMING? You weren't swimming, one fin or none, during the rescue scenario. You were holding the victim and kicking--Kicking is what we generally do when diving--unless arms are necessary due to cramps, and in an effective manor. SO, my quest for a "Swimming" scenario in diving/divemastering/rescue diving seems to still in tact.

 

[DCBC]

DCBC: I haven't been in or seen a true panic situation--knock wood. Agree with all that you say. Except: When you say "I couldn't care less about style", --I don't know. Style means mechanics. Good mechanics--AND developed SWIMMING" muscles--means you have a big leg up on others if you have to swim w/o fins any big distance. Arguing whether that will ever happen is another thing. But I like your whole approach to the subject.

As a diving instructor, I'm more concerned with efficiency and fitness of the student. I agree with you that ideally 'good style' will translate into 'efficiency of stroke,' but this isn't something that's necessary to pass the swim test.

One example is my son Jeremy, who has always had difficulty with negative buoyancy when swimming (he's built like a Greek god). If he jumps into the water, he sinks to the bottom like a stone. Over the years, he has improved his stroke tremendously, but at the time I taught him to dive, his stroke was poor. He did however have the strength and endurance to complete my 'swim test.'

In other words, if a person can swim 400m, I'm not concerned with what it looks like (I'm not teaching swimming). At the same time, I've seen good swimmers be unable to complete the 25m underwater swim. Good mechanics can only take you so far. It doesn't necessarily equate to fitness and confidence.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I don't know any scuba instructors doing too much better than break-even from their teaching alone. If someone's making money from all the damn classes and certifications, well it sure ain't the instructors themselves.

And that's the sad part.
How can they pay instructors when they have to pay for this and all the people to staff it?
An office interior design and build solution for PADI: An interview with Neil Fishburne, Vice President, Finance & Operations on Vimeo

 

[Edward3c]

And that's the sad part.
How can they pay instructors when they have to pay for this and all the people to staff it?
An office interior design and build solution for PADI: An interview with Neil Fishburne, Vice President, Finance & Operations on Vimeo

But PADI are a publishing company they don't make any money actually teaching. They leave that to others.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I've been thinking about this thread and running a few things through my mind.

You know how with drivers licenses they have a DMV, and when new drivers go in all they have to do is take a written test and a driving test then they get signed off. The student can go anywhere they want to get the training, i.e, parents, friend, driving school, high school drivers ed (not much of that around anymore) etc.
It doesn't matter where they get the training as long as they can pass the written and driving is all it takes to get a license.

Why can't scuba be like that? Why do we have to go through a private agency?
As long as someone can pass a written exam (which is what you have to do now) a pool swim test (which could be done at any public or municipal pool, as long as there is someone qualified to sign off on it), and an ocean skills test which would be like the driving portion (This would require a state board employee that deals with rec certs similar to an LA County Instructor but state wide.
As long as the divers could pass a written and perform a set of in water skills who cares where they get trained.
This would open up a whole new world of mentorship and getting trained through dive clubs, independents, and other venues including self study.
It would also allow the certification quality levels get back on track since it wouldn't be just private profit driven companies dictating and setting standards, since there would be an outside source with no vested interest in charge of setting and maintaining standards.

 

[SanDiegoSidemount]

You know how with drivers licenses they have a DMV ....

Why can't scuba be like that? Why do we have to go through a private agency?

It's an interesting idea to separate the training from the certification, but then I think to myself, "Do I really want my checkout dives to be like a visit to the DMV?" :cringe:

---------- Post added March 1st, 2014 at 10:52 AM ----------

FYI pilot's licenses use the same model, for better or worse. A lot of the experience of certification then ends up resting on your FAA Pilot Examiner. Some are amazing and teach as they evaluate, and some are miserable jerks.

 

[rhwestfall]

I've been thinking about this thread and running a few things through my mind.

You know how with drivers licenses they have a DMV, and when new drivers go in all they have to do is take a written test and a driving test then they get signed off. The student can go anywhere they want to get the training, i.e, parents, friend, driving school, high school drivers ed (not much of that around anymore) etc.
It doesn't matter where they get the training as long as they can pass the written and driving is all it takes to get a license.

Why can't scuba be like that? Why do we have to go through a private agency?
As long as someone can pass a written exam (which is what you have to do now) a pool swim test (which could be done at any public or municipal pool, as long as there is someone qualified to sign off on it), and an ocean skills test which would be like the driving portion (This would require a state board employee that deals with rec certs similar to an LA County Instructor but state wide.
As long as the divers could pass a written and perform a set of in water skills who cares where they get trained.
This would open up a whole new world of mentorship and getting trained through dive clubs, independents, and other venues including self study.
It would also allow the certification quality levels get back on track since it wouldn't be just private profit driven companies dictating and setting standards, since there would be an outside source with no vested interest in charge of setting and maintaining standards.

There used to be..... it was called the YMCA......

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[Eric Sedletzky]

There used to be..... it was called the YMCA......

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Well, kind of. They still did their own training then cert. What I'm talking about would be an agency that only tests then certifies for a fee. The fee would only cover the clerical costs and would be way less than what a current OW class costs, but the standards could be much higher to be able to pass since you would pay the fee to take the tests regardless whether you pass or fail. There would be no incentive for the tester to pass anybody because would be a neutral entity and they get paid no matter what.
The training could be obtained anywhere by anybody.
This would give people the freedom to learn from mentors in dive clubs etc. like it used to be. They could really hone their skills over the period of weeks or months if needed. Make the test harder than any regular cert agency class is now. Make the in water skills thorough and not just barely do it and hope they never have to do it again.
This would not replace PADI, NAUI, SSI, SDI, or any other agency, it would just be an alternative.
You do your homework, learn to dive, and go in to take the test for a fraction of the cost of sitting through a regular class, and you're a better diver too.
The only way it would replace the above agencies would be if operators and dive shops stopped recognizing run of the mill agency standards as acceptable.

The reason I'm seeing this as something that could work is because let's face it, none of the regular cert agencies are going to improve anything, it's only going to get worse. They need to make money and they've already screwed themselves.

There needs to be an alternative system that goes completely around this current CF of a dive industry that is recognized world wide, and uses an outside testing source to pass sport divers.

 

[TMHeimer]

Eric S. One problem for me is I don't like Gov't. getting involved with stuff, scuba or otherwise. Too many (mostly necessary unfortunately) rules for everything the last 25 years or so. But, different subject.

Of course, there are really no rules at all right now (other than dive flag laws, scuba being prohibited on many lifeguarded public beaches, etc.). To my knowledge pretty much any dive shop can and will sell you any equipment if you are not certified. Of course, no Air/Gas--But you can buy a compressor for that. Most shops are affiliated with an agency, so the courses are that agency's. It must be economically better for the shops that way or they wouldn't do it. Free enterprise.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Eric S. One problem for me is I don't like Gov't. getting involved with stuff, scuba or otherwise. Too many (mostly necessary unfortunately) rules for everything the last 25 years or so. But, different subject.

Government already is involved to some degree. Who's the ones who come pluck you out of the water when you run into problems diving out here (California coastline or anywhere for that matter), it's either going to be local EMS (fire - paramedic), S.O. rescue helicopter (if they have one), Coast Guard, or some other government agency, whether you like it or not.
The DOT regulates matters with tanks as a safety issue.
It's only a matter of time before they decide they need to do something about ill trained divers because the self policed dive industry has failed the public (which in my opinion it has).

Of course, there are really no rules at all right now (other than dive flag laws, scuba being prohibited on many lifeguarded public beaches, etc.). To my knowledge pretty much any dive shop can and will sell you any equipment if you are not certified. Of course, no Air/Gas--But you can buy a compressor for that. Most shops are affiliated with an agency, so the courses are that agency's. It must be economically better for the shops that way or they wouldn't do it. Free enterprise.

Nothing would change with dive shops. They could still sell training just like there are private driving schools, and they will always sell gear. They could sell to whoever they want, none of that would be different.
The only difference I'm talking about would be that the Examining entity that tests and issues certifications would be independent from any established agency. So you could still go through a PADI OW course, but then you would still have to go get a state certification on top of that, or train yourself on your own and just go in and take the test, either way. All you have to do is pass the test. But PADI would drastically need to improve things otherwise their students wouldn't be able to pass the state test.

This would also eliminate a lot of the independents letting people slide through that shouldn't have been given a card. I ran into this with one guy I dove with. Absolutely no way he passed any of the skills, I think he was just signed off.
If there was a state test then guys like this would be out of it, which would be better for all of us.

In my opinion there are not enough checks and balances in the current training structure. Who's watching PADI, NAUI, SSI, SDI, and the rest?
When they decide to weaken standards or instructors let students slide by, who's there to stop this?
And who elected any of these agencies to be in charge anyway, I don't like the way it's going!