Why waste money on training!?

[John C. Ratliff]

I have now read through all these posts, and have a couple of points to make.

--Divers today are much different people than the divers of the 1950s and 1960s.

Let me explain; when I began scuba diving in 1959, at age 14, I had been in the water since the age of six. I had gone through swimming lessons at the YMCA in Salem, Oregon, then entered swim team. I had swam age group swimming since age 8, and used to watch Sea Hunt after swim team practice before going home for supper. I had been snorkeling since age 10 or so, and had done open water snorkeling in rivers and reservoirs before owning a wet suit (that got really cold in some of the streams, such as the creek at Silver Creek Falls summer camp). I had also taken either YMCA or Red Cross Lifesaving courses (plural) before getting my scuba unit. In other words, those of us who endeavored to scuba dive were highly motivated swimmers who were very, very comfortable in the water. I received my first formal course in scuba diving in 1963, from LA County instructor Roy France, who was brought into the area by our dive club, the Salem Junior Aqua Club. I read everything I could find on scuba diving, including Cousteau's The Silent World (three times, I think). If you read that book three times, you will have the basic knowledge to dive; not the water skills, but the basic knowledge. Frederick Dumas made sure of that (from Dr. Sam Miller, Dumas was the actual author of The Silent World, and that is acknowledged in the front of the book). For lifesaving, we had to tread water for 5 minutes with our hands out of the water, and float motionless in the water for 15 minutes (that simply got boring). We also had to rescue a fighting "victim" (usually the biggest guy they could find).

--We dove with the club.

Dive clubs at the time were how we dove. We drove to the dive sites together, and were associated with the Salem Aqua Club, the senior members who watched over us.

--We were skin divers first.

Most of us did breath-hold skin diving before getting into scuba, and along with scuba diving. At the time I could breath-hold dive to 60 fsw.

In short, we were very comfortable in the water, with or without scuba, as we had virtually grown up in the water. The photos below are of a Salem Aqua Club and Salem Junior Aqua Club combined trip to Thetis Island, BC, Canada in about 1963-4 era (cannot remember the date). Lots of good memories, including that net we cut off a boat's prop and wrestled to the surface after it dropped us to the bottom at about 30 feet (note--no BCs to use to lift, just good swim fins and a lot of effort).

--We dove shallow

Our dives were between about 30 feet and 60 feet (about 10-20 meters), mainly to either spear fish or for "discovering" the underwater world. We were not interested in deep diving, as it is really cold in Oregon, and we knew of the deaths of divers such as Maurice Fargues and Hope Root from diving deep. It wasn't an ego thing...it was exploration.

SeaRat

 

[Redshift]

Again, I'm afraid you are incorrect. The national organisation's training syllabus has been awarded the ISO/EN/EUF standard not CMAS. When the SAA (the UK body for CMAS) finally acquire the EUF standard it will be their syllabus and QA controls that get approved, not CMAS'.

Because it's the national organisation who teaches CMAS and has its syllabus, with the nationally adopted modifications. That's what has been said before...
Never heard of CMAS itself teaching directly without being through national organisations, but I guess that could happen...
I don't how this changes what was being discussed though.

 

[TMHeimer]

JC Ratliff, I was doing all that water stuff at the same young age, but got OW certified in 2005. So at least I was a "water" person. What puzzles (scares to a point) me is non "water" people taking the present day OW course--sans rescue skills. They would seem to have 2 strikes against them.

 

[John C. Ratliff]

JC Ratliff, I was doing all that water stuff at the same young age, but got OW certified in 2005. So at least I was a "water" person. What puzzles (scares to a point) me is non "water" people taking the present day OW course--sans rescue skills. They would seem to have 2 strikes against them.

I have had this experience. I dove with a guy named Joe Yeng, who was making his second open water dive after completing scuba training. We were in the Tree Farm Hole on the South Santiam River on June 8th, 1973. The first two times he tried to go underwater in the hole, with some current, he freaked out. He thrashed around trying to climb out of the water, and ended up on the gravel bar with me next to him. He tried a second time, and again freaked out. I talked to him, and we went hand-in-hand into the water, and to the bottom where he calmed down. From there we were able to swim upstream to the head of the hole, and found a oar and fishing pole, then saw some cutoff jeans on the bottom. Someone had been in a raft and taken a dip in the water going through the rapids above this hole. We were happy not to see a body in the hole! But he had not been prepared for entering a rather calm river hole by his training, which was unfortunate. After calming down, and it took about five minutes, he had an enjoyable dive.

SeaRat

 

[DCBC]

--We were skin divers first.

It was common practice to quickly weed-out students that possessed poor swimming abilities. Students had to possess relatively strong swimming, in-water abilities and be comfortable in the water as a prerequisite to diving education. If accepted, students went on to basic equipment (which was considered fins, mask and snorkel). They performed various entries, kicks, surface dives, doff and don, etc., before moving on to SCUBA.

The thought behind this was that if someone could learn the skill-sets while holding their breath, it would be far easier with an hour's worth of air on their back. Today, I continue to run my classes in this manner (so do many of the Navy Diver and Commercial Diver training schools).

The training philosophy has changed greatly over the years. Today there is an effort not to exclude anyone. Before diving was geared to the fit and healthy (a person had to pass a medical and be cleared by their Physician to dive). Today the focus is on using equipment. The technology has improved and divers are dependent on it for their safety. Years ago the training prepared the student for the eventuality of equipment failure. Safety was dependent on in-water ability, their Buddy, a cool head and good judgement.

I've made my living (for over 40 years) from recreational, military and commercial diving. If experience has taught me anything it's that regardless of proper maintenance, everything made by man will malfunction. It's just a matter of time. Regardless of how good the technology is today, I think is unwise to put a non-swimmer on SCUBA (although this is allowed today by one certification agency that allows students to pass a swimming test with fins, mask and snorkel). Rather than excluding them, they can learn to dive. Anyone can do anything without preparation. That seems to be the difference.

In today's society, the values have changed. No longer do you need to have technical competence for many activities. In-fact you can even pay for a few Sherpas to carry you to the top of Mount Everest. Then you can call yourself a Mountaineer. I don't know, you might be able to get a badge for that too...

 

[edwardjohnson]

Well I can´t say that I disagree with you on the changing of training philosophy and that they are allowing more people to do things even if some of them are not deemed "fit" to do so. And yes you can put on a bcd, a mask, a tank and have someone pull you down telling you to equalize every 10 seconds and call yourself a scuba diver, I´ve seen such tourism in Vietnam one summer...Most of these tourists won´t ever go dive by themselves.

But I have to say that I´m ok with that...technology advance and corporate desires have led to this trend, but it´s also people´s thirst for new things that lead them to doing things they´ve never done before. I want everyone to at least go underwater once, to see what I´ve seen and the world that they´ve been missing. That´ll show them how precious the ocean and the marine life is and how they are endangered. (The same goes for the mountain one)

Also the gears today are much more reliable than the ones in the past, they still require maintenance of course but everyone can use them. I don´t think that in developing these equipments everyone was thinking of profit, some though about sharing their vision to others and not only specialists or expert. Scuba diving shouldn´t be restricted to good swimmers only. There are many places to dive that are safe and doesn´t need constant surveillance.

I also think that everyone should be responsible for his/her own life. You´re going to have to deal with the consequences of diving without an instructor even if you´ve been warned. If someone only did his OW and went alone on a dive even though he´s been taught not to during his courses then he kinda deserves what´s coming to him. Who else is to blame? It´s like a knife, you can hurt yourself but you should be allowed to use it and not be excluded from it.

 

[Taliena]

Funny, I thought cmas 1* is 20m, 2* is 40m and 3* is 60m. All on air, that is in France what they say.
I prefer some trimix at that depths

 

[Rhone Man]

What classes did Jacques Cousteau take? What did people do before Padi and Naui?

I have a friend who was trained to Scuba dive by the USAF (Your tax dollars at work! Teaching pilots how to scuba dive!) about 10 years before PADI and NAUI came to be, and whenever asked for his c-card he hands over a letter from the late 1950s which confirms that the military has trained him in the proficient use of underwater breathing apparatus. Much to my amazement, he says he has never had a problem.

 

[sealark]

I have a friend who was trained to Scuba dive by the USAF (Your tax dollars at work! Teaching pilots how to scuba dive!) about 10 years before PADI and NAUI came to be, and whenever asked for his c-card he hands over a letter from the late 1950s which confirms that the military has trained him in the proficient use of underwater breathing apparatus. Much to my amazement, he says he has never had a problem.

Why would that amaze you? I went through Navy diving school in 1965 and never been civillian certified. The local dive shop gave me a certification card free because of my 6 months training. I never used it or needed it dont even know where it is now. The military training is 100 times better than any civillian scuba certification. That's why the AF person has never had a problem.

 

[Redshift]

There is one problem with military certifications, though.
I'm sure they will differ from country to country, but they are done in a very different environment from the recreational diving. Different procedures, different equipment, different signals and communication, etc.
So the problem arises when one of those divers is in a recreational environment and has to deal with divers who were all trained differently.
Recreational agencies will have a few differences, but in the end, what they teach is very similar.