Why waste money on training!?

[DCBC]

...And it's getting worse. For instance, CMAS considered their P1 diver to be supervised. Even though the limits were 20m and the course is similar to PADI OW, although it can be more extensive, depending on the country. ...That forced CMAS to change its policy not to be in disadvantage and it shouldn't have happened this way. Why level by the lowest requirements?

I wrote many of the CMAS Canada requirements, so am somewhat familiar with CMAS policy. The CMAS PADI Agreement has less to do with equality of certification than prerequisites for CMAS and PADI courses.

It is agreed by the agencies that :

- A One Star * Diver may enroll in a PADI Advanced program (This is interesting because according to CMAS, a One Star * Diver cannot dive with another One Star * Diver, but must be supervised by a Diver with a higher rating).

- A PADI OW Diver requires a PADI Advanced program before they may enroll in a CMAS Two Star ** Program.

Like you have already stated, CMAS sets minimum requirements for certification. The Country can then add additional requirements for certification, at its discretion. The certification instructor can expand on these requirements.

If you look carefully, I think you'll agree that CMAS is not 'leveling to the lowest requirement.'

...It can definitely be tricky to choose an instructor. And nowadays can be tricky to trust a diver certification as well. And why is that? Is it not the agencies' fault?

The differences are that with PADI the instructor cannot change what is required before they must certify (they can't change the program requirements in anyway). With other agencies, an instructor must ensure minimum requirements, but they are encouraged to add anything that will be beneficial to the Student (within reason).

Obviously if I'm teaching a NAUI OW course (for example). I can't teach my OW students to use Heliox; but am required for them to be able to rescue an unconscious person underwater. I can (and do) require them to doff and don full SCUBA gear in the deep-end with a blacked-out face mask; and that they swim 400 Meters on the surface / 25 Meters underwater (holding their breath without fins) as a course prerequisite.

In other words PADI has requirements, NAUI (and the other organizations) have minimum requirements. An instructor with PADI is more restricted than with another agency. That doesn't mean that there are not excellent PADI instructors, but all PADI programs follow the same structure, with the same requirements, regardless of who's presenting it (a standardized program that's the same in Tokyo as it is in London). This has obvious advantages in quality control that McDonald's has realized; a Big Mac is the same no matter where you go.

If you are producing anything on a mass scale, it's a reasonable philosophy to use. My philosophy however is to train divers on an individual basis and as such my courses haven't had a fixed time period (it depends on the individual, they move to the next step when they are proficient and comfortable in doing so). I seek to improve fitness and confidence and not simply introduce students to the use of diving equipment.

I say this so that readers can understand that not all courses are taught in the same way. The needs of people are different. If someone is going on vacation and wants to dive in ideal conditions, I will often refer them to another instructor. Most of my students are either die hard divers, or young people wanting to become Navy or Commercial Divers. My goal is to prepare them for the North Atlantic and adversity. At the same time, I realize that this is not the type of training needed or required by most of today's recreational divers. I'm just not comfortable with mediocrity.

I like the club system and have been involved with clubs where the training is done by volunteers. It can certainly have its advantages.

Me too.

People want things fast and effortlessly. And agencies want people and put out the message that it's easy, quick and everyone can do it over a weekend if needed be.

Less training also makes courses cheaper. Everybody is happy, right? Until they just quit diving, or accidents happen, or hopefully they find another instructor further on who corrects all flaws in the original training.

Agreed.

 

[Redshift]

I wrote many of the CMAS Canada requirements, so am somewhat familiar with CMAS policy. The CMAS PADI Agreement has less to do with equality of certification than prerequisites for CMAS and PADI courses.

I'm aware of what the agreement represents, what I was talking about was how both certifications are seen under European law, which has 3 levels, supervised diver, autonomous diver and dive leader. In this view, the P1 would be on the first category (which is limited to 12m depth) and OW would be an autonomous diver. Obviously it doesn't make sense, so they relaxed the "supervised diver" description, although in practice, P1s are still supervised if they are training and diving in CMAS centers.

You can see these levels here Standards for Training Organisations/System

- A One Star * Diver may enroll in a PADI Advanced program (This is interesting because according to CMAS, a One Star * Diver cannot dive with another One Star * Diver, but must be supervised by a Diver with a higher rating).

This supervision is what I was talking about previously.
And One star can even enroll in Rescue if it has some experience.

- A PADI OW Diver requires a PADI Advanced program before they may enroll in a CMAS Two Star ** Program.

Only an OW with 5 dives, which I think is too little, especially when to go from One to Two stars in some countries a diver needs more than 5 dives and some specialties.
The same happens again with Rescue divers going to Three Stars with 25 dives only.
I think PADI got the better deal.

If you look carefully, I think you'll agree that CMAS is not 'leveling to the lowest requirement.'

Not the training, but the dropping the "supervised diver" definition in order to fit into the european regulations at the same level as PADI OW.

The differences are that with PADI the instructor cannot change what is required before they must certify (they can't change the program requirements in anyway). With other agencies, an instructor must ensure minimum requirements, but they are encouraged to add anything that will be beneficial to the Student (within reason).

That is very interesting and a fundamental difference. If a student ticks a box, then it has to be approved. Sometimes it's not that simple and clearing a mask once among 20 attempts does not show that the student is prepared.

 

[Storker]

according to CMAS, a One Star * Diver cannot dive with another One Star * Diver, but must be supervised by a Diver with a higher rating

Cite, please. I've seen this claim several times here on SB, and I can't for the life of me understand where that claim comes from. My source (www.cmas.org) says otherwise, and so does all CMAS 1* training I've heard of here in Norway. From the CMAS International Diver Training Standards and Procedures Manual:

4. Competencies of a certified CMAS One Star Diver
4.1 A CMAS One Star Diver shall be trained such that when assessed by a CMAS Instructor, he shall be deemed to have sufficient knowledge, skill and experience to procure air, equipment, and other diving services and to plan, conduct, and log open-water dives that do not require mandatory inwater decompression stops, without the supervision of a CMAS Instructor or CMAS Dive Leader, when properly equipped and accompanied by another certified diver of at least the same level, provided the diving activities undertaken, the diving conditions and the diving area are similar, equal or better to those in which training was received.
4.2 A CMAS One Star Diver is qualified to dive within the following parameters:
4.2.1 To use air as a breathing gas;
4.2.2 To make dives which do not require mandatory in-water decompression stops;
4.2.3 To make dives during normal daylight hours;
4.2.4 To dive in environments where direct vertical access to the surface is possible;
4.2.5 To dive only when appropriate support is available at the surface; and
4.2.6 To dive under conditions that are equal or better than the conditions in which he was trained.

(bolding mine)


So, according to CMAS' own documents, posted on CMAS' website, a CMAS 1* diver is qualified to dive independently. What's your source of information?

---------- Post added February 24th, 2014 at 12:48 PM ----------

I haven't found any detailed syllabus on CMAS' website, the one posted is rather schematic. However, the syllabus for a CMAS 1* course in Norway consists of 15 theory sessions of 45 minutes each, pool sessions(s) and 6 open water dives. That's at least as much as - if not quite a bit more than - I got during my PADI OW course.

---------- Post added February 24th, 2014 at 01:18 PM ----------

From the CMAS 1* syllabus specified by the Norwegian Diving association:

Theory sessions:

• Introduction (45 min)
• Equipment (45 min)
• Fitting and assembly of equipment (2x45 min)
• Diving technique (2x45 min)
• Physical conditions underwater (45 min)
• Tables and computers (2x45 min)
• Planning and safety (45 min)
• Safety and first aid (2x45 min)
• Diving medicine (2x45 min)
• Diving practice (45 min)
• Theory exam
• Introduction to the diving club (optitional, 45 min)

(This is significantly more than I got during my PADI OW class)

Pool skills:

• Relocation of regulator
• Breathing from free-flowing regulator
• Mask clearing
• Recovery of unconscious buddy
• Use of alternate air source
• Swimming with alternate air source
• Weight release and ascent
• CESA

OW dive training (bolded paragraphs not covered during my PADI OW course)

OW dive 1 (max depth 9m, min time 15min)

• Donning and buddy check
• Correct weighting
• Retightening of weight belt
• Buoyancy control excercise
• Ending the dive correctly
• Weight release on surface

OW dive 2 (max depth 15m, min time 15min)

• Donning and buddy check
• Giant stride entry
• Retightening of weight belt
• Buoyancy control excercise
• Clearing of mask and regulator
• Ending the dive correctly
• 200m surface swim
• Weight release on surface

OW dive 3 (max depth 18m, min time 15min)

• Donning and buddy check
• Entry and surface check
• Retightening of weight belt
• Clearing of mask and regulator
• Relocation of regulator behind shoulder
• Use of alternate air source
• Line cutting with knife
• Safety stop
• Ending the dive correctly
• Weight release on surface

OW dive 4 (max depth 18m, min time 15min)

• Donning and buddy check
• Entry and surface check
• Retightening of weight belt
• Clearing of mask and regulator
• Relocation of regulator behind shoulder
• Use of alternate air source
• Safety stop
• Ending the dive correctly
• What to do if negative on the surface
• Rescue of unconscious buddy (not just on the surface, but from the bottom)
• Weight release on surface
• Use of compass on surface

OW dive 5 (max depth 9m, min time 15min)

• Donning and buddy check
• Entry and surface check
• Retightening of weight belt
• Diving skills training
• Safety stop
• Ending the dive correctly
• Weight release on surface
• Doffing of BCD in water, on surface

OW dive 6 (max depth 20m, min time 15min)

• Independent planning of dive, max depth 20m, with correct use of tables (compulsory also for PADI OW in Norway, due to national regulations)
• Donning and buddy check
• Entry and surface check
• Retightening of weight belt
• Diving skills training
• Safety stop
• Ending the dive correctly
• Weight release on surface

You may perhaps understand why I'm all whenever I see the - IMO totally false - claim that a CMAS 1* diver isn't considered competent to dive independently?

 

[Edward3c]

I'm aware of what the agreement represents, what I was talking about was how both certifications are seen under European law, which has 3 levels, supervised diver, autonomous diver and dive leader. In this view, the P1 would be on the first category (which is limited to 12m depth) and OW would be an autonomous diver. Obviously it doesn't make sense, so they relaxed the "supervised diver" description, although in practice, P1s are still supervised if they are training and diving in CMAS centers.
...

Your working under the assumption CMAS has EUF/ISO accreditation they don't.
PADI in Europe do and so do BSAC, the SAA are getting ready, but don't have it yet.
ScotSAC haven't even started down the EUF route and are likely to be left in the cold..

What also causes confusion is the UK HSE are still using an equivalence table last reviewed in 1990, well before the EUF/ISO standards were written..

 

[Agility]

Cite, please.

This document is from 2006 so it it probably outdated, but it contains the cite you asked for.
http://datadb.ltv-mv.de/sicherheitsstandards_vdst.pdf
Although it is in German the section concerning the 4-star rule is understandable.

 

[Storker]

Only an OW with 5 dives, which I think is too little, especially when to go from One to Two stars in some countries a diver needs more than 5 dives and some specialties.

It does look kinda weird, considering that a CMAS* diver needs minimum 20 post-cert dives to enroll to a CMAS** course. And "our" CMAS** is basically equivalent to PADI AOW + Rescue

The same happens again with Rescue divers going to Three Stars with 25 dives only.

Which is even worse, since a CMAS diver needs a minimum of 40 dives after his/her CMAS** certification. And with a CMAS***, you're dive leader qualified.

I think PADI got the better deal.

Me, too.

---------- Post added February 24th, 2014 at 02:22 PM ----------

This document is from 2006 so it it probably outdated

Either that, or it's specific for Germany. Up here, that would never fly, and even some 25 years ago, a buddy pair of two CMAS* divers were considered qualified for independent diving. If we'd required at least a CMAS** diver in each buddy pair, the club outings would have been few and far between, and CMAS is non-commercial and basically dive club focused. It's an umbrella organizations for national Diving Federations, which also are non-commercial.

And, as I said, it's contrary to CMAS' own guidelines and standards. Are you sure that those stars are CMAS stars and not DTSA stars? CMAS doesn't list any standards or syllabus for a **** training program, and the CMAS*** cert is listed under the "Leadership diver" training programs, not ordinary recreational diver training programs.

Although it is in German the section concerning the 4-star rule is understandable.

In Norway, there's no formal curriculum for CMAS****. CMAS* is limited to 20m, CMAS** is limited to 30m, and after CMAS*** you're considered qualified to dive to 40m and you've even had some deco training.

Norwegian requirements for CMAS****:

• Member of a club affiliated with the Norwegian Diving Association the last five years
• Have been CMAS*** qualified for at least two years
• Have a minimum of 100 dives after CMAS*** certification
• Can document qualifications on organizing outings, trips or other diving activities with focus on safety and emergency procedures
• Can document knowledge within one specialized area of competence

The cert is awarded by application only.

Cite (NDF website in Norwegian)

 

[Edward3c]

Citing Norwegian or German diving association rules etc is not the same as citing CMAS. The two bodies mentioned are allowed to add to the minimum CMAS requirements as they see fit.

 

[Storker]

Citing Norwegian or German diving association rules etc is not the same as citing CMAS. The two bodies mentioned are allowed to add to the minimum CMAS requirements as they see fit.

Exactly. That's why I primarily cited CMAS' own standards and syllabi from CMAS' own website. They explicitly say that even a CMAS* diver is considered competent to

plan, conduct, and log open-water dives that do not require mandatory inwater decompression stops, without the supervision of a CMAS Instructor or CMAS Dive Leader, when properly equipped and accompanied by another certified diver of at least the same level

http://www.cmas.org/learn-to-dive/one-star-diver-training-programme
http://www.cmas.org/learn-to-dive/two-star-diver-training-programme

My info on our local syllabus was included to give an example of details in the syllabus for a CMAS* class, since I couldn't find such details on CMAS' website.

 

[Redshift]

Cite, please. I've seen this claim several times here on SB, and I can't for the life of me understand where that claim comes from. My source (www.cmas.org) says otherwise, and so does all CMAS 1* training I've heard of here in Norway. From the CMAS International Diver Training Standards and Procedures Manual:

(bolding mine)

So, according to CMAS' own documents, posted on CMAS' website, a CMAS 1* diver is qualified to dive independently. What's your source of information?

It is different now, and maybe it was always like that in CMAS "headquarters", but since each country can adjust the rules, in many countries, P1 was a supervised diver, even though the training was more complete than PADI OW.

You may perhaps understand why I'm all whenever I see the - IMO totally false - claim that a CMAS 1* diver isn't considered competent to dive independently?

I don't see it as saying CMAS P1 is less competent, but it sure helps for new divers to dive with someone with more experience. It gives them more confidence to progress and there are things such as navigation that is not so well covered in P1 that is necessary.
In Portugal, in the beginning, a P1 needed to dive with a P3. This was later relaxed to be OK to dive with a P2.
With the coming of European legislation, now P1 divers are stated as autonomous. I haven't been there in a few years to know if in practice they are completely autonomous from the beginning, but I suspect that if diving with the school who trained them, they will still be taken by a more advanced diver.

Your working under the assumption CMAS has EUF/ISO accreditation they don't.
PADI in Europe do and so do BSAC, the SAA are getting ready, but don't have it yet.
ScotSAC haven't even started down the EUF route and are likely to be left in the cold..

Maybe CMAS itself hasn't, because they don't teach directly. They do it via the national federations of each country. And, at least in the case I know of Portugal, CMAS training is registered and certifies divers according to the European standards, NP EN 14153-2 for P1, NP EN 14153-2 for P2 and NP EN 14153-3 for P3.

Citing Norwegian or German diving association rules etc is not the same as citing CMAS. The two bodies mentioned are allowed to add to the minimum CMAS requirements as they see fit.

Exactly. That's why I primarily cited CMAS' own standards and syllabi from CMAS' own website. They explicitly say that even a CMAS* diver is considered competent to

Yes, but as Edward3c was saying, CMAS headquarters can say something, but then each country may require something extra. Those are minimum standards.

 

[Edward3c]

...
Maybe CMAS itself hasn't, because they don't teach directly. They do it via the national federations of each country. And, at least in the case I know of Portugal, CMAS training is registered and certifies divers according to the European standards, NP EN 14153-2 for P1, NP EN 14153-2 for P2 and NP EN 14153-3 for P3.
…

Again, I'm afraid you are incorrect. The national organisation's training syllabus has been awarded the ISO/EN/EUF standard not CMAS. When the SAA (the UK body for CMAS) finally acquire the EUF standard it will be their syllabus and QA controls that get approved, not CMAS'.

About 5 years ago CMAS started teaching courses in direct competition with the national organisations it portrays to represent.

CMAS belongs to the old world of 'has-been' and is being replaced by the ISO. Even the Egyptian authorities require their centres to adopt EUF, see Chamber of Diving and Watersports (CDWS).

Kind regards