Why use Force Fins?

[Akimbo]

I think Bob has a right to be a little frustrated. For 30+ years he has been listening to comments about "why should I pay so much for a set of fins" from people who have never tried them but still want to bash them. …

Why should the company that makes Force Fins be any different than every other company? I doubt that any pair of fins could become an “object of desire” like Rolex or Jaguar. Without that, a product must stand on its merits. I have not seen Force Fins criticized in this thread; only some curious divers that want to justify a purchase. Is it unreasonable for a skeptical but interested buyer to ask these questions?

1. Why hasn’t a significant part of the market responded more favorably to the product in 30+ years?

2. Why hasn’t the product been copied as patents expire? Unfortunately, patents are copied all the time before expiration to companies that can easily afford to defend them.

3. Why hasn’t a large well-funded company with worldwide distribution bought out the company for the patents?

4. Force Fins are expensive, but not that much more than Hollis F1s or Scuba Pro Open Heel Seawing Novas. Distribution is obviously a factor, but is it unreasonable to wonder why they aren’t more dominant in the market with such a loyal following?

5. If this product is so good that it sells itself, why isn't it sold with an unconditional satisfaction guarantee? That is what manufacturers often do when they are confident that their product is significantly superior to all the competition. I would have no trouble buying a demo pair in any color if I could return them in 90 days for a full refund or swap for a new pair. I also would be willing to rent a pair for 90 days if the rent applied to the purchase.

Based on responses in this thread, it sounds like they are worth a try if you have difficulty or discomfort with “standard” fins, or you can get them cheap. A few supporters also speak favorably but only with antidotal observations. After reading this thread objectively, is there any reason to think that Force Fins are only slightly better if at all?

I have no problem buying direct and like to see “the little guy” with a better product prevail in an industry. But I’m not willing to base a purchase on superlatives and endorsements with questions like this looming. But I am interested in a fin that lives up to their extraordinary claims.

 

[eelnoraa]

I am with Akimo here. I have not dove Force Fins before because 1) I am hestiate to spend that much on a pair of fins (more about this later). 2) It not really not common enough that I can borrow one and try. But I do want to know for myself, if they are really as good as users claim and do they fit my usage.

I am also a value buyer. But value to me has to be that the additional return I am getting has to worth the additional cost. This is highly personal. So with law of diminishing return, there is a point where I do NOT think the huge additional cost will be with the small return. Take the fins for example, I have used many model, Jet, F1, sling shots, OMS, dive rite, ... they all are not bad to begin with. So I struggle to see what and how Force Fins can improve my diving experience enough that I am willing to pay half of a scooter or drysuit worth of money for it. This is not a bash. It is a genuine question. It will be great if there can be a FF demo day, just like DUI, Santi, White do for their drysuit.

 

[buddhasummer]

Why should the company that makes Force Fins be any different than every other company? I doubt that any pair of fins could become an “object of desire” like Rolex or Jaguar. Without that, a product must stand on its merits. I have not seen Force Fins criticized in this thread; only some curious divers that want to justify a purchase. Is it unreasonable for a skeptical but interested buyer to ask these questions?

1. Why hasn’t a significant part of the market responded more favorably to the product in 30+ years?

2. Why hasn’t the product been copied as patents expire? Unfortunately, patents are copied all the time before expiration to companies that can easily afford to defend them.

3. Why hasn’t a large well-funded company with worldwide distribution bought out the company for the patents?

4. Force Fins are expensive, but not that much more than Hollis F1s or Scuba Pro Open Heel Seawing Novas. Distribution is obviously a factor, but is it unreasonable to wonder why they aren’t more dominant in the market with such a loyal following?

5. If this product is so good that it sells itself, why isn't it sold with an unconditional satisfaction guarantee? That is what manufacturers often do when they are confident that their product is significantly superior to all the competition. I would have no trouble buying a demo pair in any color if I could return them in 90 days for a full refund or swap for a new pair. I also would be willing to rent a pair for 90 days if the rent applied to the purchase.

Based on responses in this thread, it sounds like they are worth a try if you have difficulty or discomfort with “standard” fins, or you can get them cheap. A few supporters also speak favorably but only with antidotal observations. After reading this thread objectively, is there any reason to think that Force Fins are only slightly better if at all?

I have no problem buying direct and like to see “the little guy” with a better product prevail in an industry. But I’m not willing to base a purchase on superlatives and endorsements with questions like this looming. But I am interested in a fin that lives up to their extraordinary claims.

I could be wrong but I thought there was such a policy if bought direct, no?

 

[mathauck0814]

Why should the company that makes Force Fins be any different than every other company? I doubt that any pair of fins could become an “object of desire” like Rolex or Jaguar. Without that, a product must stand on its merits. I have not seen Force Fins criticized in this thread; only some curious divers that want to justify a purchase. Is it unreasonable for a skeptical but interested buyer to ask these questions?

1. Why hasn’t a significant part of the market responded more favorably to the product in 30+ years?

2. Why hasn’t the product been copied as patents expire? Unfortunately, patents are copied all the time before expiration to companies that can easily afford to defend them.

3. Why hasn’t a large well-funded company with worldwide distribution bought out the company for the patents?

4. Force Fins are expensive, but not that much more than Hollis F1s or Scuba Pro Open Heel Seawing Novas. Distribution is obviously a factor, but is it unreasonable to wonder why they aren’t more dominant in the market with such a loyal following?

5. If this product is so good that it sells itself, why isn't it sold with an unconditional satisfaction guarantee? That is what manufacturers often do when they are confident that their product is significantly superior to all the competition. I would have no trouble buying a demo pair in any color if I could return them in 90 days for a full refund or swap for a new pair. I also would be willing to rent a pair for 90 days if the rent applied to the purchase.

Based on responses in this thread, it sounds like they are worth a try if you have difficulty or discomfort with “standard” fins, or you can get them cheap. A few supporters also speak favorably but only with antidotal observations. After reading this thread objectively, is there any reason to think that Force Fins are only slightly better if at all?

I have no problem buying direct and like to see “the little guy” with a better product prevail in an industry. But I’m not willing to base a purchase on superlatives and endorsements with questions like this looming. But I am interested in a fin that lives up to their extraordinary claims.

To this I would add:

6. Why isn't there independently verified data to support the "power" or "efficiency" claim? We have WOB metrics on rebreathers or the performance metrics for DPVs, why not on fins? Price point too low? Given the relative market size for CCR/DPV vs. fins, I've got to believe that volume alone would make it a worthwhile investment to be able to claim to have the "most efficient" or "most powerful" fin. Instead we get experiential stories from the converted. Anecdote is not the plural of data.

---------- Post added August 3rd, 2014 at 01:43 AM ----------

I am with Akimo here. I have not dove Force Fins before because 1) I am hestiate to spend that much on a pair of fins (more about this later). 2) It not really not common enough that I can borrow one and try. But I do want to know for myself, if they are really as good as users claim and do they fit my usage.

To this I would add:

3) From a design perspective, I'm not convinced that the physics play out the way the anecdotes describe. I had the opportunity to handle a divers' force fins on one of our charters (I unfortunately did not have a chance to kick them) and they honestly felt very flimsy. That's not data either, but the shape and construction of that particular fin that I held in my hands did not give me confidence that they were superior to the paddle fins that are far more prominent.

 

[Akimbo]

To this I would add:

6. Why isn't there independently verified data to support the "power" or "efficiency" claim?....

I don’t believe that a metric for fins exists. The first breathing machine for regulators was developed by the US Navy Experimental Diving Unit in the 1970s. You would think that a fin testing machine would be developed… until you consider all the human variables involved. The function of DPVs and regulators are much more straight forward.

Like the first breathing machine, the military’s mission justifies R&D far in excess of the product cost. Extending the distance, speed, and/or saved endurance by 10%-20% in combat swimmers would be a meaningful tactical advantage. I suppose it is possible that such an instrument exists and is classified, but the product of this hypothetical research doesn’t seem to be reflected in standard-issue fins… thus my comment on ex-SEALs.

Most of us have tried lots of fins and been disappointed with the marketing hype. Splits, vents, stiff, floppy, hinged with elastic springs, extended paddles on thin arms, etcetera. As for me, I can’t decide if any of them are an improvement so keep going back to what I am comfortable with — the old shoe syndrome??? Perhaps incorrectly, excessive and quantitatively unsupported claims by all fin manufactures have left me skeptical. I fully accept that I’m not sensitive enough recognize a 10% improvement while the hype or excitement leads me to “think” the improvement is 50-100%.

I have no desire to bash any product here. I would be delighted to find fins that I like significantly more than Jet Fins. I find myself gravitating back to them every time I try a new fin, but can’t articulate why.

I could be wrong but I thought there was such a policy if bought direct, no?

Possible, but I didn’t notice it.

 

[TN Traveler]

Why should the company that makes Force Fins be any different than every other company? I doubt that any pair of fins could become an “object of desire” like Rolex or Jaguar. Without that, a product must stand on its merits. I have not seen Force Fins criticized in this thread; only some curious divers that want to justify a purchase. Is it unreasonable for a skeptical but interested buyer to ask these questions?

1. Why hasn’t a significant part of the market responded more favorably to the product in 30+ years? Generally because of cost - most divers find a cheaper fin that works OK for a lot less $$$ and therefore don't find the need to look for an improvement. The one major type of diver that will pay to use Force Fins are those of us with a physical problem (bad knees, bad hip, bad ankle, cramping) who are looking for relief without losing performance.

2. Why hasn’t the product been copied as patents expire? Unfortunately, patents are copied all the time before expiration to companies that can easily afford to defend them. I am guessing because most big companies have little interest in making a product that requires non-mechanized production, has a high cost of materials, and therefore a more limited market. Plus Bob has always kept the materials formulation proprietary and it would take significant research to recreate the properties of the materials.

3. Why hasn’t a large well-funded company with worldwide distribution bought out the company for the patents? Several have tried but Bob is not willing to totally give up control of the process and wants to maintain the ability to continue his creative efforts.

4. Force Fins are expensive, but not that much more than Hollis F1s or Scuba Pro Open Heel Seawing Novas. Distribution is obviously a factor, but is it unreasonable to wonder why they aren’t more dominant in the market with such a loyal following? See 3 & 4 above

5. If this product is so good that it sells itself, why isn't it sold with an unconditional satisfaction guarantee? That is what manufacturers often do when they are confident that their product is significantly superior to all the competition. I would have no trouble buying a demo pair in any color if I could return them in 90 days for a full refund or swap for a new pair. I also would be willing to rent a pair for 90 days if the rent applied to the purchase. It is - 30 day - no questions asked!

Based on responses in this thread, it sounds like they are worth a try if you have difficulty or discomfort with “standard” fins, or you can get them cheap. A few supporters also speak favorably but only with antidotal observations. After reading this thread objectively, is there any reason to think that Force Fins are only slightly better if at all?

I have no problem buying direct and like to see “the little guy” with a better product prevail in an industry. But I’m not willing to base a purchase on superlatives and endorsements with questions like this looming. But I am interested in a fin that lives up to their extraordinary claims.

From others:

6. Why isn't there independently verified data to support the "power" or "efficiency" claim? We have WOB metrics on rebreathers or the performance metrics for DPVs, why not on fins? Price point too low? Given the relative market size for CCR/DPV vs. fins, I've got to believe that volume alone would make it a worthwhile investment to be able to claim to have the "most efficient" or "most powerful" fin. Instead we get experiential stories from the converted. Anecdote is not the plural of data. There is no known test that measures performance metrics for fins. About 20 years ago Rondales included Force Fins in their annual "fin test". The results were the Force Fins were rated way above the competition but the results were pulled because the competitors all were big $$ paid advertisers and did not want the results published. If you can design a test that will measure "fin efficiency" I am sure we would all appreciate it - until then, anecdotal evidence is all we have.

---------- Post added August 3rd, 2014 at 01:43 AM ----------

Originally Posted by eelnoraa

I am with Akimo here. I have not dove Force Fins before because 1) I am hestiate to spend that much on a pair of fins (more about this later). 2) It not really not common enough that I can borrow one and try. But I do want to know for myself, if they are really as good as users claim and do they fit my usage.




To this I would add:

3) From a design perspective, I'm not convinced that the physics play out the way the anecdotes describe. I had the opportunity to handle a divers' force fins on one of our charters (I unfortunately did not have a chance to kick them) and they honestly felt very flimsy. That's not data either, but the shape and construction of that particular fin that I held in my hands did not give me confidence that they were superior to the paddle fins that are far more prominent. All I can say to that is ask the question what type of Force Fin were you handling? Some have more flex that others - it depends on the fin style and material - I can guarantee that if you ever handled a Force Fin made from the Tan Delta material, you would say that you never handles a fin that was made so well. Since Force Fin offers an unlimited time replacement if the fins fail because of a material failure and there are reports of Force Fins being used for over 20++ years, I don't think "flimsy" is even a word that should ever be used (name another manufacturer that offers such a guarantee?)! The only fin that I know of that might last that long are jets and they are heavy, heavy and are tough for the average diver to use for maximum performance.

---------- Post added August 3rd, 2014 at 11:55 AM ----------

See my reply - imbedded.

Like the first breathing machine, the military’s mission justifies R&D far in excess of the product cost. Extending the distance, speed, and/or saved endurance by 10%-20% in combat swimmers would be a meaningful tactical advantage. I suppose it is possible that such an instrument exists and is classified, but the product of this hypothetical research doesn’t seem to be reflected in standard-issue fins… thus my comment on ex-SEALs. The military - both US and foreign - are probably Force Fin's largest customer - but they don't necessary buy the standard Force Fins. Bob has developed specialty fins for them like the SD-1's that can be worn over boots, quickly removed, when swimming in from offshore drops. The Coast Guard is a major purchaser for use by Rescue Swimmers. There must be something they find in Force Fins that they can't find elsewhere.

Most of us have tried lots of fins and been disappointed with the marketing hype. Splits, vents, stiff, floppy, hinged with elastic springs, extended paddles on thin arms, etcetera. As for me, I can’t decide if any of them are an improvement so keep going back to what I am comfortable with — the old shoe syndrome??? Perhaps incorrectly, excessive and quantitatively unsupported claims by all fin manufactures have left me skeptical. I fully accept that I’m not sensitive enough recognize a 10% improvement while the hype or excitement leads me to “think” the improvement is 50-100%. Can't disagree with you here - there is too much hype by manufactures who are trying to compete on price and want you to buy there product - I am also skeptical of all this. Will you see a 50% improvement if you use Force Fins - not likely - will your diving be a little easier and less painful - most definitely.

I have no desire to bash any product here. I would be delighted to find fins that I like significantly more than Jet Fins. I find myself gravitating back to them every time I try a new fin, but can’t articulate why. Try a pair of Hockey Fins, Extra Force Fins or Excellerating Force Fins - in Tan Delta material - and I think you will wonder why you did not switch sooner. Just my opinion but I dove Jets for years and I am glad I switched.



Possible, but I didn’t notice it.

 

[Bob Evans]

Akimbo, We have always offered a money back guarantee.

 

[Akimbo]

1. Why hasn’t a significant part of the market responded more favorably to the product in 30+ years? Generally because of cost - most divers find a cheaper fin that works OK for a lot less $$$ and therefore don't find the need to look for an improvement. The one major type of diver that will pay to use Force Fins are those of us with a physical problem (bad knees, bad hip, bad ankle, cramping) who are looking for relief without losing performance.

Discomfort isn’t factor for me using other fins… not yet anyway.

2. Why hasn’t the product been copied as patents expire? Unfortunately, patents are copied all the time before expiration to companies that can easily afford to defend them. I am guessing because most big companies have little interest in making a product that requires non-mechanized production, has a high cost of materials, and therefore a more limited market. Plus Bob has always kept the materials formulation proprietary and it would take significant research to recreate the properties of the materials.

I have designed tooling and don’t see anything that makes the Force Fin significantly less able to be “mechanized” than as any other fin, except possibly small production order quantities. The argument doesn’t make sense because wetsuits have very high labor content and, except for cutting, are handmade and are sold by big companies.

3. Why hasn’t a large well-funded company with worldwide distribution bought out the company for the patents? Several have tried but Bob is not willing to totally give up control of the process and wants to maintain the ability to continue his creative efforts.

Fair enough, a satisfactory deal hasn’t been available. That only says that companies haven’t seen enough value to offer acceptable terms. Not a criticism, founders and buyers often have very different perceptions of value.

4. Force Fins are expensive, but not that much more than Hollis F1s or Scuba Pro Open Heel Seawing Novas. Distribution is obviously a factor, but is it unreasonable to wonder why they aren’t more dominant in the market with such a loyal following? See 3 & 4 above

See replies to 2 & 3

5. If this product is so good that it sells itself, why isn't it sold with an unconditional satisfaction guarantee? That is what manufacturers often do when they are confident that their product is significantly superior to all the competition. I would have no trouble buying a demo pair in any color if I could return them in 90 days for a full refund or swap for a new pair. I also would be willing to rent a pair for 90 days if the rent applied to the purchase. It is - 30 day - no questions asked!

Got a link? I would probably need more than 30 days but I imagine that could be negotiated.

6. Why isn't there independently verified data to support the "power" or "efficiency" claim? We have WOB metrics on rebreathers or the performance metrics for DPVs, why not on fins? Price point too low? Given the relative market size for CCR/DPV vs. fins, I've got to believe that volume alone would make it a worthwhile investment to be able to claim to have the "most efficient" or "most powerful" fin. Instead we get experiential stories from the converted. Anecdote is not the plural of data. There is no known test that measures performance metrics for fins. About 20 years ago Rondales included Force Fins in their annual "fin test". The results were the Force Fins were rated way above the competition but the results were pulled because the competitors all were big $$ paid advertisers and did not want the results published. If you can design a test that will measure "fin efficiency" I am sure we would all appreciate it - until then, anecdotal evidence is all we have.

That is possible, but if accurate that brings us back to why they haven’t they been copied. Manufacturability limitations just aren’t plausible. Besides, magazine tests are traditionally of marginal quantitative value, especially for fins and masks.

3) From a design perspective, I'm not convinced that the physics play out the way the anecdotes describe. I had the opportunity to handle a divers' force fins on one of our charters (I unfortunately did not have a chance to kick them) and they honestly felt very flimsy. That's not data either, but the shape and construction of that particular fin that I held in my hands did not give me confidence that they were superior to the paddle fins that are far more prominent. All I can say to that is ask the question what type of Force Fin were you handling? Some have more flex that others - it depends on the fin style and material - I can guarantee that if you ever handled a Force Fin made from the Tan Delta material, you would say that you never handles a fin that was made so well. Since Force Fin offers an unlimited time replacement if the fins fail because of a material failure and there are reports of Force Fins being used for over 20++ years, I don't think "flimsy" is even a word that should ever be used (name another manufacturer that offers such a guarantee?)! The only fin that I know of that might last that long are jets and they are heavy, heavy and are tough for the average diver to use for maximum performance.

Correct me if my perception is wrong, but it sounds like Force Fins do well with a rapid flutter kick and have little to no thrust on the up-stroke… True? What about very slow speed maneuvering and small course corrections?

Like the first breathing machine, the military’s mission justifies R&D far in excess of the product cost. Extending the distance, speed, and/or saved endurance by 10%-20% in combat swimmers would be a meaningful tactical advantage. I suppose it is possible that such an instrument exists and is classified, but the product of this hypothetical research doesn’t seem to be reflected in standard-issue fins… thus my comment on ex-SEALs. The military - both US and foreign - are probably Force Fin's largest customer - but they don't necessary buy the standard Force Fins. Bob has developed specialty fins for them like the SD-1's that can be worn over boots, quickly removed, when swimming in from offshore drops. The Coast Guard is a major purchaser for use by Rescue Swimmers. There must be something they find in Force Fins that they can't find elsewhere.

Perhaps, but they aren’t the fin chosen by most SEALs or rescue swimmers. It may be that SEALs are in such superb condition that you could nail a piece of plywood on their boots and they would get the job done, but their selection of Force Fins is the minority. I have yet to see Force Fins used by a SAR team.

Most of us have tried lots of fins and been disappointed with the marketing hype. Splits, vents, stiff, floppy, hinged with elastic springs, extended paddles on thin arms, etcetera. As for me, I can’t decide if any of them are an improvement so keep going back to what I am comfortable with — the old shoe syndrome??? Perhaps incorrectly, excessive and quantitatively unsupported claims by all fin manufactures have left me skeptical. I fully accept that I’m not sensitive enough recognize a 10% improvement while the hype or excitement leads me to “think” the improvement is 50-100%. Can't disagree with you here - there is too much hype by manufactures who are trying to compete on price and want you to buy there product - I am also skeptical of all this. Will you see a 50% improvement if you use Force Fins - not likely - will your diving be a little easier and less painful - most definitely.

I appreciate the opinion, which is why I am interested in researching them at all.

I have no desire to bash any product here. I would be delighted to find fins that I like significantly more than Jet Fins. I find myself gravitating back to them every time I try a new fin, but can’t articulate why. Try and pair of Hockey Fins, Extra Force Fins or Excellerating Force Fins - in Tan Delta material - and I think you will wonder why you did not switch sooner. Just my opinion but I dove Jets for years and I am glad I switched.

OK, which model should I test? I am fine with the comfort of Jets, F1s, and long freediving fins. I would like more thrust than I can get out of Jets, especially if I can sustain high work levels longer. That added thrust is only needed occasionally in high currents. My normal pace in recreational Scuba is slow to hovering.

Ideally, I would prefer one fin that fits a 7mm wetsuit sock up to a Whites Fusion Drysuit Boot with Fourth Element Arctic socks. I have very wide (6E) short (8½) feet with an unusually high arch so the foot pocket is a problem on many fins… I have used a ball-grinder to widen fins more than once.

I have switched all of my fins to 3/8" bungee straps and prefer them to a cinched rubber or webbing strap. My interest is for Scuba, not freediving, and am most attracted to a models that makes limited walking on deck or climbing a ladder practical.

---------- Post added August 3rd, 2014 at 02:16 PM ----------

Akimbo, We have always offered a money back guarantee.

I found the “Money Back Guarantee!” above the flag, but couldn’t find the details. I had to use Google to locate this page.

Force Fin: Shipping and Return Policy

The key statement is:

…We do guarantee your satisfaction with products purchased through ForceFin.com. If for any reason you are not satisfied, please return to us at: 27 West Anapamu Street, Suite 318, Santa Barbara, CA 93101 U.S.A., within thirty (30) days of the date of our shipping your product to you, along with your contact information, and copy of the invoice you received from us, and we will exchange or refund, at your discretion.

Can I suggest making “Money Back Guarantee” a hot link to the above page and make it stand out more… maybe even add the word Satisfaction.

In any case, what fin do you suggest I test based on my description at the bottom of Post 38? Any other questions to make a recommendation?

 

[g1138]

Bob I did look at your site in depth once more after a long while and noticed your $700 Tan Deltas are no longer listed.
I did always wonder, why the large up charge on those models, and why aren't they produced anymore?

As to the above little conversation. I always found the traditional shape and short Force fins to be lacking in minute maneuver control.
All I see on the site now are those standard short shape and the Foils now.

With Jet fins I could flick my feet either slowly or quickly and maneuver on a dime where ever I wanted.
With the Force fins I would need to heavily tweak my feet to get the correct angle and then fin in a very exaggerated manner to provide the same movement. There was no resistance, so I always felt I was over tweaking my ankles. There was a lack of feedback and therefore I had a lack of control over how hard I was tweaking and throwing my ankles.

When you're doing those types of movements from the ankles it was very stressing with the Force Fins. I didn't know if the model I was using was the Pro or original.

 

[TN Traveler]

My comments/opinions inserted below:

Discomfort isn’t factor for me using other fins… not yet anyway.

I have designed tooling and don’t see anything that makes the Force Fin significantly less able to be “mechanized” than as any other fin, except possibly small production order quantities. The argument doesn’t make sense because wetsuits have very high labor content and, except for cutting, are handmade and are sold by big companies.

Wet suit labor is cheap third world - not what making Force Fins requires. Possibly, if volumes were big enough you could mechanize the process - however, one major problem is that urethane mixes have a very short life during which you can get a successful "pour" (I am a Registered Professional Chemical Engineer and PhD with over 45 years of experience), have worked with these types of materials and they are not a good candidate for mass production.



Fair enough, a satisfactory deal hasn’t been available. That only says that companies haven’t seen enough value to offer acceptable terms. Not a criticism, founders and buyers often have very different perceptions of value.



See replies to 2 & 3



Got a link? I would probably need more than 30 days but I imagine that could be negotiated.



That is possible, but if accurate that brings us back to why they haven’t they been copied. Manufacturability limitations just aren’t plausible. Besides, magazine tests are traditionally of marginal quantitative value, especially for fins and masks.



Correct me if my perception is wrong, but it sounds like Force Fins do well with a rapid flutter kick and have little to no thrust on the up-stroke… True? What about very slow speed maneuvering and small course corrections?

The standard Force Fins are better suited to flutter kicking and it takes some time to master other kicks - I would not say they need a "rapid" tempo. The Hockey, Extra, Flying and Excellerating Force Fins are much better when you need precision.

Perhaps, but they aren’t the fin chosen by most SEALs or rescue swimmers. It may be that SEALs are in such superb condition that you could nail a piece of plywood on their boots and they would get the job done, but their selection of Force Fins is the minority. I have yet to see Force Fins used by a SAR team.

If you looked at the Italian SAR Team working the Concordia - they were wearing Force Fins. Again, I have no idea how many Jet Fins and how many Force Fins the military purchases - I think they give the members a choice but obviously, since they keep reordering Force Fins in large amounts, someone is using them.
, there must

I appreciate the opinion, which is why I am interested in researching them at all.



OK, which model should I test? I am fine with the comfort of Jets, F1s, and long freediving fins. I would like more thrust than I can get out of Jets, especially if I can sustain high work levels longer. That added thrust is only needed occasionally in high currents. My normal pace in recreational Scuba is slow to hovering.

My opinion is that you would be most satisfied with either the Hockey Fins or Extra Force Fins in Tan Delta (these are DanVolker's preferred model). I dive the same way you do and I use my Hockey Fins most often - they are a little easier on me since I have 2 knees that have been surgically repaired and a bad hip.

Ideally, I would prefer one fin that fits a 7mm wetsuit sock up to a Whites Fusion Drysuit Boot with Fourth Element Arctic socks. I have very wide (6E) short (8½) feet with an unusually high arch so the foot pocket is a problem on many fins… I have used a ball-grinder to widen fins more than once.

One thing that Force Fins offer is what are called "Comfort Insoles" - these are neoprene pads that can be inserted into the top of a foot pocket to make it slightly smaller. Using these, I can use the same fins size with a heavy soled boot (no insert) and with a 3 mm sock using 2 inserts. You might have to trim the sides a little since you have a wide foot. My guess is an XL would provide you with what you need.

I have switched all of my fins to 3/8" bungee straps and prefer them to a cinched rubber or webbing strap. My interest is for Scuba, not freediving, and am most attracted to a models that makes limited walking on deck or climbing a ladder practical.

---------- Post added August 3rd, 2014 at 02:16 PM ----------



I found the “Money Back Guarantee!” above the flag, but couldn’t find the details. I had to use Google to locate this page.

Force Fin: Shipping and Return Policy

The key statement is:



Can I suggest making “Money Back Guarantee” a hot link to the above page and make it stand out more… maybe even add the word Satisfaction.

In any case, what fin do you suggest I test based on my description at the bottom of Post 38? Any other questions to make a recommendation?

---------- Post added August 3rd, 2014 at 06:30 PM --------

---------- Post added August 3rd, 2014 at 06:33 PM ----------

Bob I did look at your site in depth once more after a long while and noticed your $700 Tan Deltas are no longer listed.
I did always wonder, why the large up charge on those models, and why aren't they produced anymore?

As to the above little conversation. I always found the traditional shape and short Force fins to be lacking in minute maneuver control.
All I see on the site now are those standard short shape and the Foils now.

With Jet fins I could flick my feet either slowly or quickly and maneuver on a dime where ever I wanted.
With the Force fins I would need to heavily tweak my feet to get the correct angle and then fin in a very exaggerated manner to provide the same movement. There was no resistance, so I always felt I was over tweaking my ankles. There was a lack of feedback and therefore I had a lack of control over how hard I was tweaking and throwing my ankles.

When you're doing those types of movements from the ankles it was very stressing with the Force Fins. I didn't know if the model I was using was the Pro or original.

I will agree that the standards and Pros are not optimal for frog kicks or precise positioning - it is a technique that must be learned and it can be very difficult if you have any leg/ankle problems.

The big difference in price for the fins made from Tan Delta material is that the material is hard to work with and the rejection rate is much higher than with the standard urethanes. Plus, most of these fins are designed to use "add-ons" that improve performance such as speed pods, whiskers, bat wings, etc - all of which are based on technology gained from the aircraft or aerospace industries. These were discontinued when Bob was forced to close his California factory and lost the expertise to successfully make them. Most of the production of these fins was personally supervised by Bob and since he no longer is manufacturing them where he is located, he chose to stop production. By the way, every pair of fins made from the Tan Delta material were signed by Bob.

Anybody who has used fins made from the Tan Delta material will tell you it is amazing - it really does provide superior rebound and power for the same effort. Hopefully, as the new production facility gains the experience, he can resume production of these fins.

---------- Post added August 3rd, 2014 at 08:25 PM ----------

Some more anecdotal evidence is that Force Fins have never paid anyone to use or endorse their fins. Yet people like Michele Cousteau, Jean-Phillipe Cousteau, Sylvia Earl and John Chatterton have used Force Fins for years. Bob has not asked for nor used them for endorsement purposes. Now, they do not use the standard Force Fins - they use the more advanced models - and they pay for them.

I know I am personally impressed by people of this caliber using this product.