Why Surface with 500 PSI?

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

rsingler

Scuba Instructor, Tinkerer in Brass
Staff member
ScubaBoard Sponsor
Messages
8,938
Reaction score
13,347
Location
Cambria, California
# of dives
500 - 999
(Author Update) This old thread discusses the fallacy of "dive planning" which consists merely of "Return to the boat with 500 psi."
It gives you a tool to do deeper dives safely as you increase your diving experience after getting your OW certificate...Rock Bottom Pressure.

Every boat trip, the crew will brief the site before splashing, and finish with the warning, "Be back on the boat with no less than 500 psi in your tank!" Some boats are more dogmatic about it than others, and the consequences of surfacing with less will usually depend upon whether you also screwed up in some other way to give you less than their required minimum.

Why 500 psi? Well, an absolutely empty tank might also mean that it could have been contaminated with salt water during your OOA ascent, prompting the need for a new visual inspection before putting the tank back in service. But that's not really what concerns the boat crew.

The bigger reason, of course, is that the crew wants you back safely, and mandating 500 psi means that for an average diver, on an average dive, to average depths, you can get into a little trouble at depth, get yourself out of trouble, ascend (skipping your not-mandatory safety stop) and reach the surface with the 150 psi or so your regulators need to function properly.

How long can you take at depth (eating into your reserve) before things end badly?
Well, that all depends on your SAC/RMV. There are lots of threads on ScubaBoard discussing SAC and RMV if you use the Search function, and you will receive some training on it in your Advanced Open Water course, if not in your initial Open Water class.
But basically, Surface Air Consumption (SAC) is how many psi per minute of air you breathe during a relaxed scuba swim, at the surface. If you recall your Open Water Theory, at 33ft the ambient pressure is doubled, the air dispensed by the second stage is twice as "thick", and you will therefore go through twice as many psi per minute with the same volume of air breathed. At 99 feet, you will go through four times as much gas as at the surface.
If you think about it, a diver with a tiny tank will have a faster psi drop than a diver with a giant tank, for the same volume of gas breathed. Therefore SAC numbers are tank-dependent, so most divers convert the SAC psi from a test dive to liters per minute, or cubic feet per minute, as that value will be constant from tank to tank. That conversion is known as RMV, or Respiratory Minute Volume. You really want to know what your RMV is as you start diving a little deeper.

Why? Because ascending from 45 feet using an AL80 tank and doing a safety stop might require 200 psi for a new diver, so leaving the bottom with 700 psi will get you back on the boat with your required minimum. But finishing your dive by getting caught in some fishing line at 80 feet, getting a little stressed and taking 2 minutes to find your cutting tool and free yourself, and only then starting a normal ascent might require 875 psi even if you skipped your safety stop! If you used your usual 700psi as your "leave the bottom minimum", you wouldn't even make the surface with any air left, much less have 500 psi in the tank.

So how do you plan your dive to surface safely, and only after that arrive with 500 psi in the tank so the crew isn't mad at you?
First, measure your SAC.
Next, calculate your Rock Bottom Pressure. Rock Bottom is the pressure corresponding to the amount of gas you need to ascend and surface, with or without solving a problem, and with or without an OOA buddy. It varies with the depth of your dive, and the length of time needed to solve your problem.

This 7-year-old thread by @scubadada has exceeded 50,000 views, and is still generating contributions!
Average Gas Consumption
In it, you can use others' experience to guess what your SAC might be, until you can get around to measuring it yourself.
Then, using your SAC, you calculate a Rock Bottom Pressure at which you must leave the bottom and ascend. If not, you are now going into the reserve calculated for an emergency. If you are instead using that reserve in the middle of an emergency, you can't exceed ANY of the parameters you set, or you will not have enough gas to surface safely.

Attached are two simple spreadsheets (one Imperial, one metric [thank you, @stepfen!]) which will calculate your Rock Bottom Pressure, after entering
a) your "normal" RMV;
b) whether or not you are supposing a temporary stress-induced increase in your gas consumption (2x, 3x, 4x or more?);
c) whether there is a problem which requires "x" minutes at max depth to solve before you can start your ascent;
d) how little true tank pressure you really need to have upon surfacing (default is 150 psi);
e) whether the problem was with your buddy, who got stuck, went OOA or had an equipment malfunction, and is now using your gas via your octo to ascend.
They make some conservative assumptions, like stressed RMV/SAC gradually returning to normal as you approach the surface, and both divers being stressed to the same degree during an air share. But if anything, that may overestimate the gas pressure you need to start with, and will therefore still keep you safe.

After playing with this tool, you'll quickly find that the pressure you need to safely deal with a problem and ascend even without a safety stop is often more that the 700 psi limit you may have become accustomed to using as "the end of the fun." The starting values in the spreadsheet below are for an average new diver spending 60 seconds to solve a scary problem at 80' before starting up.
RockBottom.png

Making a safe ascent, but skipping the safety stop still requires more than 700 psi to safely arrive at the surface with 150 psi left in your tank for one diver! There's not enough for an OOA buddy; there's not enough for a problem that takes more than 60 seconds; there's not enough if you're at 90 feet.

It's food for thought, when you contemplate the shift from 35' reef dives to your first deeper foray with your buddy. Play with the numbers. Write your Rock Bottom on your slate, every dive! Always leave that max depth when you hit that pressure, or know that the little emergency you contemplated can no longer be dealt with successfully. It's why the glamorous Tech diving community always returns with a full 1/3 of their gas unused, and new cave divers return with 2/3 unused! Even little problems at depth can use up lots of precious air.

EDIT: Here are the conventions for the spreadsheets. They're locked with the password "scuba", so you can change formulas if you choose. The white cells are user adjustable without unlocking.
The deep ascent rate is user adjustable: below 60 feet/18 meters, the spreadsheet allows you to enter an increased ascent rate if you believe that in an emergency, 60fpm/20mpm may be safe enough. It drops to the standard 30fpm/10mpm above 60 feet/20m. My thanks to the usual offenders for their suggestions for improving the toy.
 

Attachments

....mandating 500 psi means that for an average diver, on an average dive, to average depths, you can get into a little trouble at depth, get yourself out of trouble, ascend (skipping your not-mandatory safety stop) and reach the surface with the 150 psi or so your regulators need to function properly......

And this my friends is why the "500" rule is so wrong. It address getting "you" to the surface from and "average" dive, and skipping all of your "safety stops". Add a buddy that needs help.....it all goes south.

Second problem is with the definition of "average". You have dive boats taking people on advanced dives in depths much deeper than average and still holding to that "rule". Take for instance a cattle boat in Key Largo taking a group of divers to the Spiegel Grove. Diver and buddy (mid to late 40's overweight and out of shape), diving the SG, sticking to the 500 rule and at the end of the dive one of them has a problem, well, they are not getting safely back to the boat. For the SG, an "average" diver would need to end the dive and come off the bottom with about 1500 psi in their tanks to get themselves and their buddy, safely, back to the boat.

Average dive for that 500 rule to work is about 50 feet or less. BTW, I've had to rescue divers on "average" dives, and was able to get them to the surface, with safety stops, merely because I managed my gas appropriately, while that buddy team was using the 500 rule. I also had a friend die on an "average" dive, diving that rule. (I was not there)
 
I like it too but need to refresh my memory on Rock Bottom.
There are lots of discussions on ScubaBoard about Rock Bottom Pressure. There are variations in approach, but all revolve around finding the tank pressure you must have left to make a safe ascent, assuming certain variables. The problem is, there are lots of maths. :eek:
This article, for example: Rock Bottom Gas Planning for Recreational Diving | Thinking Diver is a great discussion, but my eyes glaze over as I read the formulae.

Instead, the spreadsheet gets you an answer without laborious calculations that make you less likely to compute RBP for every dive.

And then, there are the variables...
Do I hold to my usual ascent rate? Or do I plan for faster knowing there's an increased risk of DCS, but wanting to arrive alive if I suddenly find myself at my RBP?
What about planning for an OOA buddy? That's the biggest eye-opener! If you tell me I always have to leave at 1800 psi to have enough gas for me and my buddy from 100 feet, then how am I ever going to have any fun? My dives'll all end after 15 minutes!

Being able to see the answer (with and without a buddy) helps you understand why, for example, you may occasionally see a dive guide with an AL40 pony on @jadairiii's Spiegel Grove dive above. That extra bit of gas may mean life or death for one diver in a herd touring the wreck. But if you're just a dive pair? You actually DO need to think about what an equipment malfunction might mean for the two of you at 100 feet. You can use the spreadsheet to see if a full AL40 pony will give you enough of an emergency reserve for one or both of you. Then you can change back to your standard tank to compute what pressure is needed for a standard ascent with no delay and no emergency, knowing that you have your pony. When Horizon Divers runs "double dips" on the Spiegel Grove most mornings and afternoons, they have a special rack for all the folks that bring a pony. Or they'll rent you one. Having that safety reserve allows you both to dive your main tank quite a bit longer.

As you start adventuring deeper, the game really does change. And diving safely requires adjustments. It's why some folks end up moving to doubles.

But let's be realistic here. When I do a vacation-of-a-lifetime trip to Bonaire my deep dives aren't like that. Yeah, we make it to 96' on the Hilma Hooker wreck, but it's at the beginning of the dive when I've got plenty of gas. If my buddy has a malfunction, we can abort and make it up no problem! Later in the dive, we're moseying up the reef and my Rock Bottom Pressure for shallower depths is much less (remember - it's a no deco dive). And at the very end of the dive, we're swimming around the coral under the boat at 20 feet. So when I finally surfaced because I only had 200 psi left in my tank, I wasn't too concerned about the boat crew being mad at me - I'd been right under their noses for the last ten minutes. Did I know my Rock Bottom Pressure for 100 feet expected max depth? Yep! But I didn't even come close to it before I was ascending to enjoy other parts of the reef. And I had a second RBP written down for the 60 feet where I expected to spend most of my time after the wreck. Again, didn't come close. You gotta love Bonaire!
HilmaHooker.jpg
The Spiegel Grove is different! There's nothing between 75' and the surface except the buoy line. You have to stick to your predetermined Rock Bottom Pressures for whatever depth you are diving on the wreck. Going up 20' isn't going to give you much added time.

Note: Some SB buddies have found some errors and have made suggestions. There's a new spreadsheet there now with a couple of small fixes.
 
Most of New Zealands dive charter boats require that you surface with 50 Bar (735 PSI). This is regardless of whether you are diving a 10 Litre, 12 Litre or 15 Litre tank, or whether you have a redundant pony bottle air supply, doubles on your back, diving with a partner or solo.

Doesn't make a lot of sense to me but might to their insurance companies. BTW, New Zealand doesn't allow lawsuits. If some drunk runs you over with their car you can sue them for the cost of replacing your torn jeans but not for pain and suffering or loss of income.
 
New Zealand doesn't allow lawsuits. If some drunk runs you over with their car you can sue them for the cost of replacing your torn jeans but not for pain and suffering or loss of income.

Even if you are crippled for life and lost all income and the bank foreclosed on your house?
 
Every boat trip, the crew will brief the site before splashing, and finish with the warning, "Be back on the boat with no less than 500 psi in your tank!" Some boats are more dogmatic about it than others, and the consequences of surfacing with less will usually depend upon whether you also screwed up in some other way to give you less than their required minimum.

Why 500 psi? Well, an absolutely empty tank might also mean that it could have been contaminated with salt water during your OOA ascent, prompting the need for a new visual inspection before putting the tank back in service. But that's not really what concerns the boat crew.
The bigger reason, of course, is that the crew wants you back safely, and mandating 500 psi means that for an average diver, on an average dive, to average depths, you can get into a little trouble at depth, get yourself out of trouble, ascend (skipping your not-mandatory safety stop) and reach the surface with the 150 psi or so your regulators need to function properly.
How long can you take at depth (eating into your reserve) before things end badly?
Well, that all depends on your SAC/RMV. There are lots of threads on ScubaBoard discussing SAC and RMV if you use the Search function, and you will receive some training on it in your Advanced Open Water course, if not in your initial Open Water class.
But basically, Surface Air Consumption (SAC) is how many psi per minute of air you breathe during a relaxed scuba swim, at the surface. If you recall your Open Water Theory, at 33ft the ambient pressure is doubled, the air dispensed by the second stage is twice as "thick", and you will therefore go through twice as many psi per minute with the same volume of air breathed. At 99 feet, you will go through four times as much gas as at the surface.
If you think about it, a diver with a tiny tank will have a faster psi drop than a diver with a giant tank, for the same volume of gas breathed. Therefore SAC numbers are tank-dependent, so most divers convert the SAC psi from a test dive to liters per minute, or cubic feet per minute, as that value will be constant from tank to tank. That conversion is known as RMV, or Respiratory Minute Volume. You really want to know what your RMV is as you start diving a little deeper.

Why? Because ascending from 45 feet using an AL80 tank and doing a safety stop might require 200 psi for a new diver, so leaving the bottom with 700 psi will get you back on the boat with your required minimum. But finishing your dive by getting caught in some fishing line at 80 feet, getting a little stressed and taking 2 minutes to find your cutting tool and free yourself, and only then starting a normal ascent might require 875 psi even if you skipped your safety stop! If you used your usual 700psi as your "leave the bottom minimum", you wouldn't even make the surface with any air left, much less have 500 psi in the tank.

So how do you plan your dive to surface safely, and only after that arrive with 500 psi in the tank so the crew isn't mad at you?
First, measure your SAC.
Next, calculate your Rock Bottom Pressure. Rock Bottom is the pressure corresponding to the amount of gas you need to ascend and surface, with or without solving a problem, and with or without an OOA buddy. It varies with the depth of your dive, and the length of time needed to solve your problem.

This 5-year-old thread by @scubadada is approaching 20,000 views, and is still generating contributions!
Average Gas Consumption
In it, you can use others' experience to guess what your SAC might be, until you can get around to measuring it yourself.
Then, using your SAC, you calculate a Rock Bottom Pressure at which you must leave the bottom and ascend. If not, you are now going into the reserve calculated for an emergency. If you are instead using that reserve in the middle of an emergency, you can't exceed ANY of the parameters you set, or you will not have enough gas to surface safely.

Attached is a simple spreadsheet which will calculate your Rock Bottom Pressure, after entering
a) your "normal" RMV;
b) whether or not you are supposing a temporary stress-induced increase in your gas consumption (2x, 3x, 4x or more?);
c) whether there is a problem which uses "x" minutes at max depth to solve before you can start your ascent;
d) how little true tank pressure you really need to have upon surfacing (default is 150 psi);
e) whether the problem was with your buddy, who got stuck, went OOA or had an equipment malfunction, and is now using your gas via your octo to ascend.
It makes some conservative assumptions, like stressed RMV gradually returning to normal as you approach the surface, and both divers being stressed to the same degree during an air share. But if anything, that may overestimate the gas pressure you need to start with, and will therefore still keep you safe.

After playing with this tool, you'll quickly find that the pressure you need to safely deal with a problem and ascend even without a safety stop is often more that the 700 psi limit you may have become accustomed to using as "the end of the fun." The starting values in the spreadsheet below are for an average new diver spending 60 seconds to solve a scary problem at 80' before starting up. Making a safe ascent, but skipping the safety stop still requires more than 700 psi to safely arrive at the surface with 150 psi left in your tank for one diver! There's not enough for an OOA buddy; there's not enough for a problem that takes more than 60 seconds; there's not enough if you're at 90 feet.

It's food for thought, when you contemplate the shift from 35' reef dives to your first deeper foray with your buddy. Play with the numbers. Write your Rock Bottom on your slate, every dive! Always leave that max depth when you hit that pressure, or know that the little emergency you contemplated can no longer be dealt with successfully. It's why the glamorous Tech diving community always returns with a full 1/3 of their gas unused, and new cave divers return with 2/3 unused! Even little problems at depth can use up lots of precious air.

EDIT: Here are the conventions for the spreadsheet. It's locked with the password "scuba", so you can change formulas if you choose. The white cells are user adjustable without unlocking.
The deep ascent rate is user adjustable: below 60 feet, the spreadsheet allows you to enter an increased ascent rate if you believe that in an emergency, 60fpm may be safe enough. It drops to the standard 30 fpm above 60 feet. My thanks to the usual offenders for their suggestions for improving the toy.
Thanks for the spreadsheet!

Question on the Ascent Calc#1:
Shouldn't the ascent time depend upon the ascent rate (which may not be a constant of 60 ft/min)?
In other words: =IF(B6>60,(B6-60)/B9,"") instead of =IF(B6>60,(B6-60)/60,"")

I would like to be safer by going at 30 ft/min ascent rate, which would take longer time to ascend and be using more gas, hence, higher rock bottom pressure.
 
And this my friends is why the "500" rule is so wrong. It address getting "you" to the surface from and "average" dive, and skipping all of your "safety stops". Add a buddy that needs help.....it all goes south.

Second problem is with the definition of "average". You have dive boats taking people on advanced dives in depths much deeper than average and still holding to that "rule". Take for instance a cattle boat in Key Largo taking a group of divers to the Spiegel Grove. Diver and buddy (mid to late 40's overweight and out of shape), diving the SG, sticking to the 500 rule and at the end of the dive one of them has a problem, well, they are not getting safely back to the boat. For the SG, an "average" diver would need to end the dive and come off the bottom with about 1500 psi in their tanks to get themselves and their buddy, safely, back to the boat.

Average dive for that 500 rule to work is about 50 feet or less. BTW, I've had to rescue divers on "average" dives, and was able to get them to the surface, with safety stops, merely because I managed my gas appropriately, while that buddy team was using the 500 rule. I also had a friend die on an "average" dive, diving that rule. (I was not there)

I'm not disagreeing with you but IMO this applies more to those diving from a private boat. The OP is posting about charter diving where DM(s) are in the water and could take over in an emergency if the need arises. Also there are a lot more divers in the water than a couple of divers diving from a private boat.

I've always allowed myself a larger reserve when buddy diving outside charters just for the reasons you posted. Which is what every diver especially those diving "advanced" dives should be doing, thinking for themselves. The 500psi is a minimum not a target. It is up the the diver(s) to decide in their dive plan how much gas they need to execute the dive safely.

Here in the Basic site 60 feet is the max depth anyway so; "Average dive for that 500 rule to work is about 50 feet or less." Works out pretty well.
 

Back
Top Bottom