Why such a hassle to get Nitrox in MA?

[gmbaker]

PG-dive does not fill Nitrox. Perhaps you should call Paul again

 

[oceancurrent]

PFF - thanks, I will check with Atlantic divers and report back. Paul at PG told me yesterday that they have no plans in the foreseeable future to do Nitrox fills.

MSylvia - Al personally told me the hard-as* diver story on Monday (6pm) and said that's the reason they won't be doing 36%+ any longer. It sounded like a silly muscle-flexing. Also, I don't endorse or condemn the 10-15min fills at NorthEastScuba.

Scott564 - It was Paul Adler, the owner of ECD, who told me about the "36% recommended limit", NOT Al, the owner of SSD.

Mike_s - Yes, I've met a lot of unreasonable shop owners. Speaking of general dive shop owner wisdom (in the context of Nitrox), here are a few more pearls from my experience:

1. Sept'05. A buddy and I are getting ready to shore dive the Cane Bay wall in St. Croix (at the North Star site) which I've done dozens of times before. The wall starts at 30ft and drops vertically to 3000+ft. Conditions are great and water temp is balmy 88 F with no termoclines. We head to the popular local dive shop Cane Bay Divers to rent tanks with 32% Nitrox. While we are analyzing the tanks, the owner tells me: "We don't use Nitrox around here. Why would you want it?". "Well, it gives me extended bottom time...". "Nah", he says authoritatively, "you will not be staying down there that long."

2. I am leading a group of divers at a Caribbean island. We are analyzing our tanks to verify the EANx32 content. One diver reports that one of her tanks checks in as Air. I reanalyze the tank and am surprised to confirm her finding. I quietly bring the tank to the owner's attention. Instead of a "Sorry, my mistake" followed by a tank-swap, the owner goes in a full-scale charade along the lines of "I am the blender-certifier of the island, I have personally filled these tanks. They are all 32s - you don't know what you are doing and your analyzer is not worth a damn." He keeps going on for a while refusing to check the tank. I listen quietly. Eventually, he swaps the tank telling me condescendingly: "I am only doing this to keep things going. But I am telling you, this tank is not air – you should get your analyzer checked." Jeez!

3. I bring two HP steel tanks to a popular dive shop on the North Shore to get them topped off. Both tanks contain 36% and are at 2800psi. My intention is to dilute them down to 33% by adding 700 psi of air in each. I have analyzer at home and plan to reanalyze the mix. My tanks have no Nitrox stickers except small pieces of masking tape with my name on them and the present mix. My reason for leaving the tapes on is so that the fill station op is aware that this is Nitrox and takes measures to prevent spilling some of it into somebody else’s tanks. The shop owner refuses to top off my tanks unless I drain them first. She cites a liability reason. I remind her that I accept full responsibility of the fill, have the right equipment and qualifications to make informed decisions. Furthermore, I tell her that if that’s what it takes, I will take my tanks outside, take off the masking tape and bring them back in for a fill – they will have no choice but to do it as they have no way of knowing what’s inside my tanks. Under no circumstance am I to drain the precious mix. The owner agrees, turns her back on me, and tells me to take off the masking tapes. No problem, I do as she says, she tops off the tanks, I put back the tapes, we are cool. At home, I reanalyze the tanks and am happy to clock dead on 33%. However, I can’t help but wonder why the “See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil” pretense at the shop. Isn’t this kind of acting a liability by itself?

 

[Jordan]

Can anybody explain to me why it is such a pain to get decent Nitrox fills around here? Why are some dive shops frivolously imposing limits (below 40%) on percentage? Perhaps they will impose a 32% limit next! Why do we have the most expensive Nitrox in the world?

Because scuba is still a young, small sport.

 

[oceancurrent]

Just called Atlantic Divers (www.atlanticdivers.com). They have premixed Nitrox up to 36%. The price is $10 for 36% and $15 for <36%. I didn't ask why they have a limit at 36%, but suspect similar believes to ECD. I doubt that there is a technical problem with filling premixed nitrox up to 40% or within 1-2%.

This reminds me that Nitrox certification for recreational divers was introduced by PADI in the 90s after a fiersome debate in their community. Many "experts" foreshadowed that letting recreational divers use Nitrox will result in a lot of accidents - O2 Tox and Bends. Nothing like this happened and, low and behold, Enriched Air Diver became PADI's most popular specialty. Still, there are a lot of old school boys out there who feel strongly against Nitrox, I guess.

 

[MSilvia]

Still, there are a lot of old school boys out there who feel strongly against Nitrox, I guess.

That would explain SSD's position, if they weren't preparing to provide fills up to 100% O2. Given that they are, I have to think what Al told you isn't the whole story.

In any case, what's the big deal about not getting 38% anyhow? I mean, using 36% instead isn't the end of the world.

 

[oceancurrent]

Quite possibly you are right, Matt. Very likely the story about the AH diver is nothing more than a cover up for a different agenda. Nevertheless, it is quite a poor and ungrounded excuse. It's great that they will be doing 21-100% mixes. However, I can't afford to keep dedicated Nitrox tanks around, so it doesn't do me any good. I think many divers here are in my shoes.

And yes, I can live with 36. However, it's a matter of principles to stand ground against diveshops which deviate from the established standards in negative ways. It's in the interest of the dive community to weed out such freevolness before it gets out of control. Thus, my Nitrox money will be going over to Mass Diving from now on unless SSD back out of their newfound rule.

Also, I hope that PG Dive will start filling Nitrox in the future. They have taken a bit of a techie swing lately selling backplates, doubles, offering advanced Nitrox and deco courses. So it only makes sense that they will start mixing Nitrox to support these operations. Given their stellar perfomance so far, I wouldn't be surprised if such a move on their part blows a lot of the Nitrox competition away and they become the primary source for this. So, next time you are at PG, remind them that you are interested in Nitrox fills

 

[RIOceanographer]

Quite possibly you are right, Matt. Very likely the story about the AH diver is nothing more than a cover up for a different agenda. Nevertheless, it is quite a poor and ungrounded excuse. It's great that they will be doing 21-100% mixes. However, I can't afford to keep dedicated Nitrox tanks around, so it doesn't do me any good. I think many divers here are in my shoes.

So you don't have dedicated nitrox tanks, which I take to mean they are not O2 clean, so you can't do partial pressure blending with pure O2 in your tanks. That means unless they bank 40% or they have a membrane compressor where O2 cleaning isn't required there is no way they could put 40% in your tank. That is kind of an important detail.

Not too many shops can afford a membrane system. In fact I don't know of any in New England that have one. So that leaves banked nitrox as the only option to fill non-O2 clean tanks, and since they can't bank everything they are going to bank the mixes they have demand for. Not many people are going to ask for 40% so why on earth would they bank it? I think that is pretty much your answer to why they are telling you what they are telling you.

 

[SteveAD]

Just called Atlantic Divers (www.atlanticdivers.com). They have premixed Nitrox up to 36%. The price is $10 for 36% and $15 for <36%. I didn't ask why they have a limit at 36%, but suspect similar believes to ECD. I doubt that there is a technical problem with filling premixed nitrox up to 40% or within 1-2%.

This reminds me that Nitrox certification for recreational divers was introduced by PADI in the 90s after a fiersome debate in their community. Many "experts" foreshadowed that letting recreational divers use Nitrox will result in a lot of accidents - O2 Tox and Bends. Nothing like this happened and, low and behold, Enriched Air Diver became PADI's most popular specialty. Still, there are a lot of old school boys out there who feel strongly against Nitrox, I guess.

Our banked 36% is for convenience, assuming most divers would want the standard blends of 32 or 36, we can do 36 fills as if they were air. I have NO problem changing my banks up to 40% if enough customer demand is there. Pricing structure is $10 for whatever is banked and $15 for any custom blend up to bank.

 

[oceancurrent]

So you don't have dedicated nitrox tanks, which I take to mean they are not O2 clean, so you can't do partial pressure blending with pure O2 in your tanks....

...Not many people are going to ask for 40% so why on earth would they bank it?...

Two things:

1. I was under the impression that many (if not most) folks around don't have O2-clean tanks for very practical reasons. It's silly to use Nitrox for mostly all shore dives, where one can hardly reach 50 fsw.

2. SSD has always banked 39-40% Nitrox. Al's new rule is that they will not be filling regular tanks to more than 36%, but will fill ponies to whatever is available in the bank. Demand has nothing to do with it - they plan to continue downmixing for anything but 39%.

 

[MSilvia]

It's great that they will be doing 21-100% mixes. However, I can't afford to keep dedicated Nitrox tanks around, so it doesn't do me any good. I think many divers here are in my shoes.

And yes, I can live with 36. However, it's a matter of principles to stand ground against diveshops which deviate from the established standards in negative ways. It's in the interest of the dive community to weed out such freevolness before it gets out of control.

That may be, or it may be that what's really in the interest of the dive community is standing ground against dive shops that are actually doing someone a disservice.

I'm hard pressed to come up with a reason to use a mix between 36% and 40%, as I think 36% (or air) is adequate up to EAN36's MOD. Higher percentage mixes are mostly for deco gas, and require an oxygen compatable cylinder and reg. If a diver is looking for EAN38, it's more a want than a need. Inconvenience IMHO is a good enough reason to use something else instead. If an otherwise excellent shop won't give a fill of what's essentially just as good as what they do offer, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. I don't mind when a shop doesn't carry what I don't need.

1. I was under the impression that many (if not most) folks around don't have O2-clean tanks for very practical reasons. It's silly to use Nitrox for mostly all shore dives, where one can hardly reach 50 fsw.

Incidentally, I do have an O2 clean tank... just one. It's an aluminium 40 that I use for deco mixes over 40% O2. I have no reason to use anything higher than EAN36 for back gas, and since the shops I frequent don't do partial pressure blending for <EAN40, I only need the one O2 clean tank. Needless to say, I don't need a deco cylinder for shore diving, but not all of my dives are from shore.