Why should I support my LDS?

[OldNSalty]

Normally? How often do you see out-of-air situations? How many tug-of-wars have you witnessed? I am a little skeptical--and concerned--that you have a sample size that allows you to define a norm.

I agree, there is a lot of stuff slung about on SB as if it was gosspel when things really should be questioned. I know of at least one instructor on here who has said in all his years of teaching he has never had this happen-that people responded as they were taught-OOA hand signal-and waited for the octo. I am sure there are exceptions but I don't think theere is enough evidence to suggest that people 'normally' don't follow there training. In fact, I would think this is not the norm...or the training is simply lacking.

From my perspective, I have fortunately never had to donate as I am normally a bothersome nanny type when diving with an insta-buddy and I am watching your air probably more then I am watching my own.

 

[TechBlue]

Normally? How often do you see out-of-air situations? How many tug-of-wars have you witnessed? I am a little skeptical--and concerned--that you have a sample size that allows you to define a norm.

The last one I saw was actually between a father and son and the end result was a fatality because the father had a heart attack-I would imagine brought on by the stress of the situation and no they were not students of mine.

 

[vladimir]

You should hang out in the Caribbean watching vacation divers for a while. You'll get to see this at least once every other day if you're with the right crowd.

Terry

I have a few hundred Caribbean dives, but I guess I've been diving with the wrong crowd, because I haven't seen an out-of-air emergency or a tug-of-war over a regulator yet. Watching underwater gladiators is not my idea of a vacation. I'd stay in Michigan if those were my only choices.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Now you are getting personal and you are talking out of context.

No ... I am not. If a diver cannot be trusted to do an air share without turning it into a crisis, then that person should not be granted a C-card ... because that means they failed to "master" that skill.

That's a true statement regardless of who is issuing the C-card.

What concerns me is that any instructor would see such a situation as somehow "normal" ... or even acceptable.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I agree, there is a lot of stuff slung about on SB as if it was gosspel when things really should be questioned. I know of at least one instructor on here who has said in all his years of teaching he has never had this happen-that people responded as they were taught-OOA hand signal-and waited for the octo. I am sure there are exceptions but I don't think theere is enough evidence to suggest that people 'normally' don't follow there training. In fact, I would think this is not the norm...or the training is simply lacking.

From my perspective, I have fortunately never had to donate as I am normally a bothersome nanny type when diving with an insta-buddy and I am watching your air probably more then I am watching my own.

It doesn't have to be book-perfect to be successful ... there is plenty of "wiggle room" in the skills for them to be done in a clumsy, but successful manner. What crosses the line is when what SHOULD be a fundamental skill that every agency mandates in their OW class turns into a panic situation. That SHOULD be caught by the instructor during OW, and if a student cannot perform the skill calmly ... even if they do it sloppily ... then they should be held back for additional work before being certified.

Certification ... by ANY agency's standards ... means you have demonstrated that you have a certain comfort level performing the skill. That's what is normally interpreted as "mastery" ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[OldNSalty]

It doesn't have to be book-perfect to be successful ... there is plenty of "wiggle room" in the skills for them to be done in a clumsy, but successful manner. What crosses the line is when what SHOULD be a fundamental skill that every agency mandates in their OW class turns into a panic situation. That SHOULD be caught by the instructor during OW, and if a student cannot perform the skill calmly ... even if they do it sloppily ... then they should be held back for additional work before being certified.

Certification ... by ANY agency's standards ... means you have demonstrated that you have a certain comfort level performing the skill. That's what is normally interpreted as "mastery" ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I agree. I am saying that if 'ripping the reg' from the mouth was the norm then people weren't trained and that sounds false to me when speaking about the entirity of cetified divers as a whole. I am sure it is not as smooth as in training but I am also sure that 'most' divers do fall back on their training and try to use hand signals-go for alternate, etc.

 

[TechBlue]

No ... I am not. If a diver cannot be trusted to do an air share without turning it into a crisis, then that person should not be granted a C-card ... because that means they failed to "master" that skill.

That's a true statement regardless of who is issuing the C-card.

What concerns me is that any instructor would see such a situation as somehow "normal" ... or even acceptable.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Skills that are taught in a relatively stress free enviroment don't amount to anything if they are not practised after the class. As far as normal I m talking about what I have seen out there, where did I ever say this was acceptable?

The "executive" OW training course, all the academics and pool sessions are completed in one weekend and the following they are off to the Caribbean (because if they don't leave right away they forgot what they just learned) with a referral clutched in their hands and off they go, how much training have these guys received and how much of it will be retained when they go off on their next annual vacation trip and how many actually practice their skills?

Another example of how the quality of training has dropped was new DM candidate in a class with all the cool gear in the pool with his cylinder strapped in backwards, I have seen a lot of very poorly trained divers in the water who should never have been certified, but they were and as far as they were concerned life was a beautiful thing because they were in sweet dulling absolute ignorance because they did not know better, of course the instructor should be nailed to the wall but that does not help the student when they have an equipment failure and they panic, yes it is poor training and skills, that is my point!

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Skills that are taught in a relatively stress free enviroment don't amount to anything if they are not practised after the class. As far as normal I m talking about what I have seen out there, where did I ever say this was acceptable?

The "executive" OW training course, all the academics and pool sessions are completed in one weekend and the following they are off to the Caribbean (because if they don't leave right away they forgot what they just learned) with a referral clutched in their hands and off they go, how much training have these guys received and how much of it will be retained when they go off on their next annual vacation trip and how many actually practice their skills?

Those are good comments and valid questions ... but it gets back to my initial point that what's getting these people in trouble isn't their gear, it's their inadequate training and skills.

A better regulator isn't going to solve that problem ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[redacted]

Someone referred to a BCD as "life support" ... and then somehow the BCD morphed into a regulator that was being used by astronauts.

The same someone referred to that magical BCD as "defective" ... which turned out to mean that it was being advertised as "manufactured" by someone other than the company who contracted with the company who manufactured it. What he really meant was that it was "counterfeit" ... which doesn't necessarily make it "defective". But those who were by then arguing about whether or not the astronaut's regulator was "life support" didn't recognize that putting someone else's name on a BCD doesn't somehow make your regulator fail.

I hope that clarifies things for you ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Bob

You may want to update this post soon before we get to Spare Airs and it really gets out of hand.

 

[Web Monkey]

I have a few hundred Caribbean dives, but I guess I've been diving with the wrong crowd, because I haven't seen an out-of-air emergency or a tug-of-war over a regulator yet. Watching underwater gladiators is not my idea of a vacation. I'd stay in Michigan if those were my only choices.

Just because you don't see them doesn't mean that they don't happen.

If you dive with the cruise ship divers (I do every winter), who typically get two dives every year or two, you get to see it quite frequently.

Additionally, there are also a huge number of problems that are averted because someone who's well trained is secretly watching the clueless and will step in before things get really bad.

Terry