Why should I support my LDS?

[Thalassamania]

Was one of the locations Hootersville?

I assure you, it won't happen here. I've held management/director postions with two South Florida Counties. I'm a former (volunteer) fire fighter and I've built Fire Stations for Palm Beach County. I cannot get a tank filled, so I suspect the other 10,000 divers are pretty much SOL. And, officially, a full time a fire fighter is prohibited from filling his personal tanks. (unauthorized use of County owned facilities)

And like the yellow line at the oil change place that says "no public beyond this point, insurance regulation", the only outside person filling tanks will be a vendor who has been selected under the approriate CCNA or JOC or what ever State sanctioned competitive selection process. (with the appropriate surety, risk and and general liability of course.) LOL

Not Hooters, perhaps Mayberry.

so what?? how are you able to go exploring in space OR underwater?? LIFE SUPPORT


try doing a CESA from 100' after 20 minutes bottom time and see how you feel in the morning.

I'd feel fine, why wouldn't I?

I know we train with doing it from a full breath of air from 20'-30', but just for fun and to prove a point, start at the bottom with your lungs empty such as would be the case if:

your octo got caught on something and is now missing the diaphragm and grill. (I have found those on the bottom at sites before; made for interesting speculations on the boat later) and for whatever reason your primary' fails completely too.

the chances of both happening on the same dive are slim, but people still play the lottery

Sorry, that's patently farm-animal stupid. First of all the free ascent, even on exhale is not big deal, if it is perhaps you shouldn't be there. If your octo is out dangling about to get caught on something, you are a stroke of the first order, and perhaps you should stay dry.

And then there's always your buddy, who is less than an arm length away.

oh wait and your redundant gear is is more equipment of what variety?? LIFE SUPPORT thank you



umm, alright, the point that I was supporting with the analogy was that you cannot go into either environment without equipment that provides you with the conditions that your human body requires in order ro remain alive.

If you can escape one, but not another hostile environment back into your native one under your own steam that's great. Really it is. But you also are definitely NOT STAYING in either inhospitable one without the LIFE SUPPORT equipment which was my original point.

There is no question that diving equipment can be life support when there is a ceiling, but that's not the use of the term as we're discussing it. Face it. if the guy behind the counter said, "life support" to any diver who routinely dove with either a physical or virtual ceiling, they'd take their business elsewhere. That's a phrase that is saved for moving the newbie up to the more expensive line and/or model.

I am pretty sure they do sometimes. As far as "preventing death" I am sure that if you invented something that could do that, you would never have to worry about the prices paid for scuba equipment; you would be beyond rich!!!

Scuba gear does not even try to prevent death, but rather allow life in a situation or location where it would otherwise be untenible... it supports life, not assures. Thats what the fountain of youth is for.

my uncle had the drive wheels of a loaded 60 ton truck roll onto his chest last june, breaking 11 ribs and tearing/deflating both lungs. He was alone and it took 23 hours to push the truck off himself and drive himself 10 miles to a hospital. Sometimes it is people's responses in adverse situations that dictate their survivability. The doctors still can't figure out why he is alive. Some people have the desire or fight in them to defy ALL odds




can we agree that the regs give you air to breathe in an environment you would not otherwise be able to breathe in?? PLEASE??

Your uncle's a narly dude. I'd love to buy him a beer, but I don't see the relevance.

For me, it is a real leap of faith to think that just because a shop happens to be nearby and you get to know the proprietor that he/she has YOUR safety and best interests at heart.

Back to the OP's original question: If you think you can get better service/support by paying a premium to your LDS than it may be in your best interest to buy equipment there rather than elsewhere. When I first bought my equipment 7 years ago, no LDS in my area carried Zeagle equipment which I decided to buy based in large part on recommendations on SB. (Thanks to all for that!) I bought my major gear from ScubaToys and then a couple years later my wife's gear (Zeagle Zena,etc.) and never looked back. I do sprinkle some dollars with my LDS for misc. stuff.

Besides, if it were really life support would you trust anyone else to work on it? I wouldn't.

 

[vladimir]

The Segway: It is life support.

Really?

Even if I sling a pair of rollerblades for back-up?

 

[Scubagolf]

 

[tregrrr]

Thal, you are a very experienced instructor, and a Mod on here so I hesitate to take your response as scathingly as it appears to be written. I however have had a long and un-enjoyable night and that has colored my reception and subsequent response to your post. I apologize in advance if I set off a few forum specific bells about being nice.

Not Hooters, perhaps Mayberry.
I'd feel fine, why wouldn't I?
Sorry, that's patently farm-animal stupid. First of all the free ascent, even on exhale is not big deal, if it is perhaps you shouldn't be there. If your octo is out dangling about to get caught on something, you are a stroke of the first order, and perhaps you should stay dry.

We like taking things out of their context don't we?? ok fine.

The point with the CESA was not that itis impossible, but rather that an average, newer, AOW diver (as can be found in a "Basic Scuba Discussion" forum) attempting one from 100' from an empty lung is likely going to be a panic case and head up WAAAY to fast for their own good. having started at the bottom empty, they are more likely to breath hold as they do come up. AGE was not my intent but rather state of mind leading to panic leading to poor decision. At that point either AGE could be possible or more likely with near NDL loading, they may find their skin tingling after sprinting to the roof.

as for your octo getting caught... How many NEWER divers have you seen with their octo stuffed into a "ball" style holder (kindly sold to them by their friendly LDS)?? Have you never seen one escape during a dive?? Have you never guided some poor SOB that you had to go over to several times during a dive and kindly STOW THEIR OCTO FOR THEM SO IT STOPS DRAGGING ALONG THE REEF?? let your mind wander waaay back, back when you were young and interacted with strokes on a daily basis... like when you are dealing with TOURISTS!!!!

And then there's always your buddy, who is less than an arm length away.

see above...something about tourists. About the only ones I have seen LESS THAN arms length away was when we had an all gay charter and they got to hold hands.

There is no question that diving equipment can be life support when there is a ceiling, but that's not the use of the term as we're discussing it. Face it. if the guy behind the counter said, "life support" to any diver who routinely dove with either a physical or virtual ceiling, they'd take their business elsewhere. That's a phrase that is saved for moving the newbie up to the more expensive line and/or model.

yeah and i guess you missed where MY point was that despite being technically a life support system, that tag is misused in order to increase the value in an consumers eyes, again not a practice I am fond of either. Face it though, shady salesmen tend to exist in this world, and at all levels...

Your uncle's a narly dude. I'd love to buy him a beer ...

its spelled gnarly, and when he gets out of the Brain injury prgram, I will pass along your offer. Please pm me, and I will give you the address you should send the airplane tickets to

Relevance was quite apparent when you keep it in context: NOT ALL people succumb to potentially fatal situations, just as not all life support failures result in death ...

Besides, if it were really life support would you trust anyone else to work on it? I wouldn't.

hmmm lets take take the P.O.V of say A BEGINNER SCUBA DIVER, since this is the forum for it: properly trained and experienced technician working on my life support equipment... or a rank amateur without the tools, parts, or clue..... is there still a question??

 

[Sas]

The point with the CESA was not that itis impossible, but rather that an average, newer, AOW diver (as can be found in a "Basic Scuba Discussion" forum) attempting one from 100' from an empty lung is likely going to be a panic case and head up WAAAY to fast for their own good. having started at the bottom empty, they are more likely to breath hold as they do come up. AGE was not my intent but rather state of mind leading to panic leading to poor decision. At that point either AGE could be possible or more likely with near NDL loading, they may find their skin tingling after sprinting to the roof.

What does this have to do with equipment being life support? If a diver cannot do a CESA, then it is not the equipment failure that has caused their death, it is poor skill (whether this is because of poor training, poor attitude or just in general not a good diver, it varies).

as for your octo getting caught... How many NEWER divers have you seen with their octo stuffed into a "ball" style holder (kindly sold to them by their friendly LDS)?? Have you never seen one escape during a dive?? Have you never guided some poor SOB that you had to go over to several times during a dive and kindly STOW THEIR OCTO FOR THEM SO IT STOPS DRAGGING ALONG THE REEF?? let your mind wander waaay back, back when you were young and interacted with strokes on a daily basis... like when you are dealing with TOURISTS!!!!

Again, what does this have to do with equipment being life support? If someone is using equipment poorly, it is not the equipment that kills them it is user error in use of the equipment.

All your examples do not mean that a diver should be dependent on gear, only that they are, which is not a problem with the equipment. That is a diver problem.

 

[bnc1978]

There's no obligation to do any such thing.

I support my LDS because they make me happy, and I'm willing to pay for the service. The "happiness" I receive from having fast, high-quality equipment service, air fills and boat-rides and fun people to hang out with is well worth the money I've spent there.

If they suck, or you don't feel like it's a good deal for you, go somewhere else.

Terry

I have the same mentality with the 2 X LDS i have here in Melbourne. I have found both to be invaluable resources.

 

[Sas]

I have the same mentality with the 2 X LDS i have here in Melbourne. I have found both to be invaluable resources.

Yea there are some good LDSs in Melbourne! To be honest I've only dealt with one terrible LDS locally. The rest have been decent, few standout ones, with a few ones that are a bit indifferent, but that's about normal in any industry. It is a pity it is so expensive most of the time locally, or I would buy a lot more stuff from LDSs.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

WTH are you guys talking about?

I'll just watch....

Someone referred to a BCD as "life support" ... and then somehow the BCD morphed into a regulator that was being used by astronauts.

The same someone referred to that magical BCD as "defective" ... which turned out to mean that it was being advertised as "manufactured" by someone other than the company who contracted with the company who manufactured it. What he really meant was that it was "counterfeit" ... which doesn't necessarily make it "defective". But those who were by then arguing about whether or not the astronaut's regulator was "life support" didn't recognize that putting someone else's name on a BCD doesn't somehow make your regulator fail.

I hope that clarifies things for you ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Deep South Divers]

I've read with great interest about the fire station thing, and getting the Fire Chief to allow you to use his compressor.

For what it's worth, that doesn't happen here in South Carolina, either. Sometimes the Chief will allow firemen to fill their own tanks (whether volunteer or paid), but not the general public. I'd be surprised to see any Fire Chief with a different attitude about using their expensive equipment like that, but maybe that's the way it happens in other peoples' home towns.

(Responding to a CESA situation from 100' after 20 mins) I'd feel fine, why wouldn't I?

A typical CESA usually means an ascent rate of more than 30 fpm. Sure, it's controlled, but it's still an emergency ascent.

A 100' dive for 20 minutes is right on the verge of an NDL. Therefore, a CESA at that point is an "on the edge" kind of thing.

I think that the point being made was that even if this didn't actually cause a diver to become DSI symptomatic, it would probably make him feel pretty poor within a couple of hours.

...Assuming, of course, that it was done correctly. As tregrrr stated later, doing a CESA from 100' after 20 minutes, especially for a newer diver, would likely involve a degree of panic in most people - so the liklihood of it being done too fast is pretty high... Likely resulting in some DCI symptoms.

Perhaps a CESA from 100/20 would affect you that way - perhaps it wouldn't. As you probably know, it completely depends on your physiological conditions and how "correctly" you execute the exercise. But the point that tregrrr was trying to make relative to doing a CESA right on the edge of an NDL is clear.

There is no question that diving equipment can be life support when there is a ceiling, but that's not the use of the term as we're discussing it. Face it. if the guy behind the counter said, "life support" to any diver who routinely dove with either a physical or virtual ceiling, they'd take their business elsewhere.

I dive with ceilings both hard and soft regularly... And I would take my business elsewhere if the guy that's selling me the scuba gear didn't consider it "life support."

Every diver that I know of who dives with ceilings - and many of those who don't - would do exactly the same thing... They'd take their business elsewhere if it wasn't considered "life support" by the vendor.

That's a phrase that is saved for moving the newbie up to the more expensive line and/or model.

I've never encountered that - my experience is completely the opposite.

Besides, if it were really life support would you trust anyone else to work on it? I wouldn't.

Some of us do our own work - and some of us trust a professional with professional tools more than our own hands. Either way, we consider it "life support" and are more trusting of those who feel the same way than those than consider scuba gear to be "recreational toys."

Either way, when the work is complete, we test our gear before staking our lives on it... Just as we test our gas before relying on it to keep us alive at depth.

 

[Deep South Divers]

someone referred to a bcd as "life support" ... And then somehow the bcd morphed into a regulator that was being used by astronauts.

lol!!! :d